[Guide] Veigar, the Tiny Master of Evil

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ben4zwin

Senior Member

09-13-2009

Hey what happens if you primordial burst Dr. Mundo? He has no mana.


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Vukasa

Senior Member

09-13-2009

Well 25% of 0 is 0. So you'll do the base+AP dmg without receiving the bonus. Same with Tryndamere but i promise that hasnt saved him against a well executed combo with a lil team support. Late game when your able to DM for 900 and then baleful 500 and primordial 450+700ish all while hes stunned and cant get his ult off.

A kills a kill even if its not a mage.


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Ryno

Member

09-19-2009

I personally max Baleful strike first. get a level each of dark mater and event horizon and decided depending on who I'm laning and how they've been playing which to max first after Baleful strike.

Reason why Baleful first: Personally, I'm already good at last hitting, Baleful makes it even easier, I usually get 90% of the wave between normal attack and baleful, so all dark mater does for me is push the lane. Baleful is also a GREAT harassing skill. 5 second cd 75 mana per, beautiful. I can honestly go 1v2 in a lane because of baleful strike harassing and cuz my last hitting isn't **** I can still farm. Also, if I'm using Baleful strike to last hit and I can grab around 50-60 by the ten min mark, I've probably given myself 40ish ab. this isn't counting any heroes I've kileld with baleful or primeordial blast. Having a good amount of AB from farming early game imo is essential to hero killing and moving towards your late game. even last game where we lost I was still 11-4-5 because I had 450 ab, I was pretty much two shotting the enemy heroes who were decently farmed cuz of my team mates. I'd say about 100 of that AB was from farming and last hitting with Baleful. if I hadn't gotten Baleful early game I'd have about half as much as I did.

Another reason for baleful early is Primeordial blast doesn't always kill, so the higher you baleful the mroe likely you can still get that kill in and get 5 ap for it.


I also don't go AP runes, I go mana runes. I'm starting tot hink to go AP though cuz I never have mana troubles mid to late game but I do have some early game. I'm still learning best rune combos with heroes.

anyways, is this a legit strategy? so far I can only find this strat for viegar so I have nothing but my own experiences to compare it to,w hich mine say Baleful is key to a gg with Veigar.


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Vukasa

Senior Member

09-19-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryno View Post
I personally max Baleful strike first. get a level each of dark mater and event horizon and decided depending on who I'm laning and how they've been playing which to max first after Baleful strike.

Reason why Baleful first: Personally, I'm already good at last hitting, Baleful makes it even easier, I usually get 90% of the wave between normal attack and baleful, so all dark mater does for me is push the lane. Baleful is also a GREAT harassing skill. 5 second cd 75 mana per, beautiful. I can honestly go 1v2 in a lane because of baleful strike harassing and cuz my last hitting isn't **** I can still farm. Also, if I'm using Baleful strike to last hit and I can grab around 50-60 by the ten min mark, I've probably given myself 40ish ab. this isn't counting any heroes I've kileld with baleful or primeordial blast. Having a good amount of AB from farming early game imo is essential to hero killing and moving towards your late game. even last game where we lost I was still 11-4-5 because I had 450 ab, I was pretty much two shotting the enemy heroes who were decently farmed cuz of my team mates. I'd say about 100 of that AB was from farming and last hitting with Baleful. if I hadn't gotten Baleful early game I'd have about half as much as I did.

Another reason for baleful early is Primeordial blast doesn't always kill, so the higher you baleful the mroe likely you can still get that kill in and get 5 ap for it.


I also don't go AP runes, I go mana runes. I'm starting tot hink to go AP though cuz I never have mana troubles mid to late game but I do have some early game. I'm still learning best rune combos with heroes.

anyways, is this a legit strategy? so far I can only find this strat for viegar so I have nothing but my own experiences to compare it to,w hich mine say Baleful is key to a gg with Veigar.
Its a legit strategy as long as its proven effective. If thats where you find the most success then by all means.

My 2 biggest problems with baleful being the key to Veigar would be that Annie has an arguably more effective last hitting nuke. Which would make Veigar < Annie and i will not have it!! =P

Lets compare nukes shall we...

-------------Baleful Strike--------------------------------------Disintergrate

-------dmg ----cd ---- mana -------------------------------dmg ----cd ----mana
  1. 80 ---- 8(s) --- 75 ---------------------------1. ---90 -----4(s) -----60
  2. 125 --- 7 -------------------------------------2. --130 ---------------75
  3. 170 ---6 --------------------------------------3. --170 ---------------90
  4. 215 ---5 --------------------------------------4. --215 --------------105
  5. 260 ---4 --------------------------------------5. --260 --------------120
Wow 0_o pretty freaking close taking that both have a .6 dmg:1 ap, from this you can see the advantages and disadvantages of both. Disintergrate makes for ezier last hitting at earlier levels and has half of balefuls cd so chances are itll be up when you need it. Baleful doesnt reach this till your lvl 9 by which team ganks will have started and u wont have the free farm or freedom of not helping ur team.

On the other hand Balefuls mana cost isnt as painful as annies [BUT WAIT!!] annies nuke gives her back the mana spent if it kills something making it 100% more mana efficient at last hitting.

Now onto the second reason I wouldnt like to consider Baleful Vivi's point of interest. It gives almost no lane control. Chances are the other team is sitting back and allowing you to stomp their minions(esp if ur soloing). So, that means ur doing one of two things baleful last hitting then backing away until the next creep comes low enuf to finish and allowing them to push the lane. Or you are atking the minions with standard atks keeping the lane steady while leaving urself vulnerable to atk. I prefer the former myself which is why Dark Matter wont push the lanes back. It should be used to keep control at a far range while you stay safe and you instantly get all of the gold with no hassle.

Dark Matter will be more useful for early game lane control and mid game hero killing since it hits soooo much harder than baleful and thats where Vivi shines in my eyes. Utter burst dmg with DM being the main atk and baleful being backup. If you try to continuously baleful someone to death they will get a feel for how strong you are and then just retreat to allies when they know your ahead. A well executed DM+EH combo doesnt give them that chance.

Just for reference heres the stats [keep in mind the dmg:ap ration is 1:1 meaning every point of ap you have gives nearly twice the dmg you receive from Baleful.

---------Dark Matter

--------dmg ---cd------ mana
  1. 120 --- 13(s) --- 90
  2. 180 -------------105
  3. 240 -------------120
  4. 300 -------------135
  5. 360 -------------150

If your good at lasting hitting then lvl 2 Baleful for 125dmg is cake so you dont really need to go further. DM makes you a more powerful champion killer mid game so i take it as such and with the buff to time it takes to land from 2.0 secs to 1.6 secs and i was landing them at 90% before. No one shuld be complaining about it being hard to land with a lvl 1 Event Horizon.

Anyways this is just my thoughts and why i think DM is overall a more effective skill than the omg 3 seconds off balefuls cd!!!


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Ryno

Member

09-19-2009

You make some great points, the only problem I see however, is that Baleful is much more spammable than Dark Matter at early levels. wreck a couple waves and your left with needing more manna to continue. Also, I don't mind at all them pushing to my tower-ish early game. it jsut makes it easier to free farm since the heroes wont be ramboing after me with the tower right there.


Also, while Dark Mater gives much more money output, Baleful gives AP per a kill. so if you can get 40 hits with baleful that's a free whatever the item is called (not good with item names yet) even with everything you've laid out it seems more feasible to get two levels baleful at least and level up dark mater along side of it. Then max out baleful later game.

Also another question. With Primeordial plast you don't level it until 8. I find that getting it at level 6 I can usually get a kill around this time as players allow themselves to stick around for xp at low hp. it's also a great way to restore mana. I personally haven't done this, but I could using primeordial blast on a creep to gain 500 mana a legit early game strat. though the highest cd on Primeordial blast discourages me from actually doing this.


So I guess my view is this. with DM can't really spam th is at level 1 or 2 as it wont isntantly knock out a wave, so at level 5 I start spamming this and I get 3-4 creep kills per use. level three version is 120 mana. with 400ish mana pool I can spam this about 4 times before I'm empty
that's 12-16 creep kills due to DM alone. Now with BS I find I can spam BS however much I want and wotn find any problem with mana. So if I use it every time I can, I can easily get that 12-16 creep kills by the time I'm level 5 or 6. plus I have that much ap added to show for it. and if I'm leveling DM on the side, when I start getting into serious clashes with the enemy I'll have that AP to show for it as well.


In all, for me the difference, and this is a big difference, between Veigar and Annie is that Veigar increases his damage for every kill he gets with his spell and he gets gold, Annie jsut gets an easier way to last hit, nothing else.


Anyways, I'm gunna try going 2 levels of BS and max out DM after that and see how it goes and get back to you.


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Vukasa

Senior Member

09-19-2009

Your not taking items into consideration and nearly everything you said after "Also", ive already said at one point or another throughout this thread.

These are points you just said that ive already made.
"so if you can get 40 hits with baleful that's a free whatever the item is called"
"it seems more feasible to get two levels baleful at least"

and then "I don't mind at all them pushing to my tower-ish early game. it jsut makes it easier to free farm since the heroes wont be ramboing after me with the tower right there." would be ok if they didnt take the tower while your free farming.(and usually they will)

Primordial Burst is not usable on creeps so you cannot use it to gain mana that way. The reason it is left to 8 or many times in my case 10 is becuz like you said DM is mana costly. and it hits harder than primordial at lvl 1. The last thing you need with my low mana pool build is another 200 mana nuke for ~200 dmg at lv 6.

"with 400ish mana pool I can spam this about 4 times before I'm empty" isnt true since i get Chalice of Harmony which actually gives you more mana regen the lower ur current mana is. Your mana regens insanely fast when your on empty, something that is necessary for this guide to work. Which is the reason i frown upon Tear. It simply doesnt give you the regen to make use of Dark Matter early on.


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Ryno

Member

09-19-2009

Hrm I'll have to try out chalice of harmony, sof ar I've jsut been building high AP items.


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Krald

Senior Member

09-22-2009

chalice is simply delicious.


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Vukasa

Senior Member

09-23-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krald View Post
chalice is simply delicious.
Yum, Yum, Yummy in my Tum, Tum, Tummy =d


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MaxTea

Adjudicator

09-23-2009

After 1-2 cheap AP and mana regen items I go warmogs. It has a lot of synergy with baleful strike.