This Tribunal System..

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BillyTheAttorney

Senior Member

01-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awaken Easley View Post
I understand what you're saying, Penguin.

I just don't see how that can make sense for you to feel that way.

A person should be weighed against the severity of their crimes, not whether or not they committed a crime at all.

It's just not justified.
The mistake you're making is that there's a "weight" behind this crime. What is the crime? What is the definition? What are we determining here?

This is not a criminal tribunal. This is not even analogus to the criminal justice system. It is, however similar to a civil court system. A civil system which has completely different standards of reviews, rights, and even evidence.

A civil system determines "whether or not someone breached their agreement" with another party during a dispute. It does not take into account numerous reasons as to "why" it just simply determines what the breach "is" who "did it" if it was "mutual" etc.

We are determining whether or not someone breached their agreement (not following the Summoner's Code). There is no "1st degree Breach of Contract" vs. "Unintentional Manslaughter Breach." There is no "I breached my agreement because he breached it first." There are no "degrees of breaching."

Who did we make the agreement with?

We made it with Riot. To essentially "be nice" in a game with other people. If other people are breaching their agreement with Riot and "not being nice" that does not -in turn- make our own agreement null and void.

Each time we hit "accept" after a patch or update, we're reaffirming our agreement with Riot. Riot is providing a game for us (that they made) and in exchange to play this game, we agree to be subject to the Tribunal to determine whether or not our conduct is in line with the agreement that we made when we hit accept.

This is not some forum for "he did it first" because that's irrelevant. You have no agreement with the other person. Perhaps by proxy because you agree to be "nice" to that person in game (via Riot), but you're not beholden to the other rager. There are no specific consequences for antagonizing one person. To do so though, means you have accepted the risk that you could run afoul of the Tribunal.

"degrees" of "meanness" have no bearing here. You can be spectacularly mean, or just a little mean, and you're going against the Summoner's Code, and can find yourself in the Tribunal.

If you don't like that "you can get sent to the Tribunal for being mean back" then the choice is always clear: Choose to play another game.

But lets not compare the Tribunal to the criminal justice system, when we lawyers have gone through all the trouble of making a much more convoluted civil system the place to go for such grievances.


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PenguinKillBear

Senior Member

01-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneReich View Post
The entire post, made by me if you haven't noticed, never stated that it is okay to behave like a child and get away with it.

You must consider these facts,

1) I stated that the offender should be punished accordingly to the situation in correlation to the offenders provoker.

2) Quick assumptions made by the Tribunal is the main flaw

3) That the Provoker is not punished, and the punishment given to the summoner is often greater then what is necessary, and most of the time is unfair considering the situation.
Those are not facts. Those are opinions.

1) I have made perfectly clear why I think there does not need to be a difference in punishment. You can accept it or not.

2) Show me your data for proving that the Tribunal makes quick assumptions. I can tell you that I read every case, every game, and carefully consider each case. I also have greater than 90% accuracy. So please tell how you can show that we all make quick assumptions.

3)The provoker is punished as well when they are reported and show up in the tribunal.

I think you are the one jumping to quick assumptions when you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Please back up your "facts"


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OneReich

Member

01-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luvatar View Post
Which is not a very good argument because the punishment isn't based on individual instances. I already told you, a tribunal punishment is a compilation of many different actions. Do different actions cause different degrees of unpleasant on the population? Yes. Is the end result different? No.

You can be a little Jerk or a Big Jerk, but in the end both Jerks will ruin the game, and that is what matters.
It isn't actually. My point is that the entire compilation of offences should be reviewed to see if there are special cases in which gives the offender a slightly weaker sentence


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OneReich

Member

01-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PenguinKillBear View Post
Those are not facts. Those are opinions.

1) I have made perfectly clear why I think there does not need to be a difference in punishment. You can accept it or not.

2) Show me your data for proving that the Tribunal makes quick assumptions. I can tell you that I read every case, every game, and carefully consider each case. I also have greater than 90% accuracy. So please tell how you can show that we all make quick assumptions.

3)The provoker is punished as well when they are reported and show up in the tribunal.

I think you are the one jumping to quick assumptions when you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Please back up your "facts"
Those too, aren't facts. You may consider each case, but doesn't mean everyone else doesn't - thus the flaw.


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OneReich

Member

01-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudouri View Post
Hm...since youo've been so responsive.

I think you've mistaken what your personal belief system is with the collective belief system.

So, your personal belief system is that retaliation should be pardoned. The collective belief system is that it should be punished. (And this is putting it simply, its really a gradient that each individual is on, but wanted to simplify my point).

Just because it is your personal belief system does not make it right. Just because its the collective belief does not make it right. Though, in this case, as the power in charge, Riot has determined to go with the collective belief.

Which really leaves you with one thing. Change the collective belief. I suggest doing 20 tribunal cases each day to make sure you are moving the line.
I will consider it Fudouri. i have started doing Tribunal cases. What you must also consider for me however, is the fact that it isn't just my personal belief. I know many summoners with the same belief as myself.


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KimKelley

Senior Member

01-07-2013

I think there's also a major misconception here in that the purpose of the Tribunal is "Justice". The purpose of the Tribunal not justice. The purpose is behavioral modification. The purpose of any of the punishments is not to fit the crime but that you don't act in the manner that brought you to the Tribunal again.

For any normal person, it should be very easy to not see the Tribunal again after their first punishment/warning. I believe the numbers on that are 75% of people who get warned never see the Tribunal again (although I think it would be good to know the number of those people who quit the game after being warned to be sure of the actual behavioral-modification efficacy).

It is for this reason that there is scaling punishment.


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PenguinKillBear

Senior Member

01-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneReich View Post
Those too, aren't facts. You may consider each case, but doesn't mean everyone else doesn't - thus the flaw.
I never said they were.

Are you aware of occam's razor?

If not, it is the principle that when there are competing explanations that typically the easiest and most obvious one is the correct one.

If I evaluate thoughtfully each case I vote on, and I very highly in agreement with the rest of the community is it easier to assume that they also think about each case or that they make quick assumptions and just happen to guess right most of the time?


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Awaken Easley

Senior Member

01-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PenguinKillBear View Post
So people are incapable of not being jerks?
I'm saying that everyone will inevitably succumb to their animal instincts in one situation or another.

You people look at these cases and you really have no idea what's going on in this person's head. You just see "Oh he's harassing that other guy, ergo he's a bad person."

For some people it's just an uncontrollable urge. I've gone into quite a few matches wanting to be optimistic, wanting to keep my team on a positive level, etc... and it just doesn't end up that way.

Whether someone says something that pisses me off, or game after game people keep throwing games... It eats away at my best intentions and I end up being an *******.

You can sit on these Forums and pretend that you've never cracked under stress, or chewed anyone out your entire life for pressing your buttons, but it's just not believable. And if you have the balls to admit to it, then what makes you any different from some of the people being banned?

And I'm willing to bet, that nine times out of ten... People aren't trying to report these "toxic players" for the greater good. They're doing it in spite. They're doing it for the wrong reasons. They don't give two ****s whether or not the problem is fixed, they just don't want to be inconvenienced, or they want revenge.

And that sort of behavior and thinking is symptomatic to the very nature of the toxic players you're fighting against.

If you're going to pretend to be a "good guy." The top of the list should start with forgiveness, right? What's forgiving about unjustly punishing people because you were briefly annoyed by them?

Nobody in this community wants to do the right thing. The people insulting players in-game, the people banning those players for insulting them, etc... You're all in it for what you can get out of it, not to help others. They can mask it however they want, there's not a lot of depth to the lies this community presents to protect its image.


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PenguinKillBear

Senior Member

01-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awaken Easley View Post
I'm saying that everyone will inevitably succumb to their animal instincts in one situation or another.

You people look at these cases and you really have no idea what's going on in this person's head. You just see "Oh he's harassing that other guy, ergo he's a bad person."

For some people it's just an uncontrollable urge. I've gone into quite a few matches wanting to be optimistic, wanting to keep my team on a positive level, etc... and it just doesn't end up that way.

Whether someone says something that pisses me off, or game after game people keep throwing games... It eats away at my best intentions and I end up being an *******.

You can sit on these Forums and pretend that you've never cracked under stress, or chewed anyone out your entire life for pressing your buttons, but it's just not believable. And if you have the balls to admit to it, then what makes you any different from some of the people being banned?

And I'm willing to bet, that nine times out of ten... People aren't trying to report these "toxic players" for the greater good. They're doing it in spite. They're doing it for the wrong reasons. They don't give two ****s whether or not the problem is fixed, they just don't want to be inconvenienced, or they want revenge.

And that sort of behavior and thinking is symptomatic to the very nature of the toxic players you're fighting against.

If you're going to pretend to be a "good guy." The top of the list should start with forgiveness, right? What's forgiving about unjustly punishing people because you were briefly annoyed by them?

Nobody in this community wants to do the right thing. The people insulting players in-game, the people banning those players for insulting them, etc... You're all in it for what you can get out of it, not to help others. They can mask it however they want, there's not a lot of depth to the lies this community presents to protect its image.
You are right. Most people, even the nice ones, crack at some point. That is fine. In fact Riot employees have stated even they do at some points. That is why one game will not get you into the tribunal. So you snap and rage in one game and get reported. Oh well. No big deal. You have to do this over and over again to show up in the tribunal.

One game of rage doesnt get you in trouble. Its repeated offense.

You can certainly make all the assumptions you want to our motivations, but me personally I want to make this game and community better. That is why I do it.


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OneReich

Member

01-07-2013

Hey guys, I'd love to be more responsive, but sorry I really need sleep - I'll try to reply sooner.