Separating BC and LW

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Mahrix

Junior Member

01-05-2013

The Problem: Armor is becoming devalued due to high cost on items with armor and the combination of Black Cleaver and Last Whisper is cutting armor by huge amounts.

Proposed Solution: Change BC's % armor pen debuff to a self buff on the champion using it and make BC and LW share a unique passive slot so the % armor penetration mechanics on both items can't be stacked.

The Goal: Remove the synergy of BC and LW. With this proposal players will have to choose whether they want some bulk with damage (black cleaver) or if they want all out damage with higher % armor penetration (last whisper). AD casters will still have their item that gives them cdr, some bulk and damage, carries can still have their go to item to hurt higher armored targets, and those building armor will have spent meaningful gold.

EDIT: I'm not positing originality for these ideas and if they've been said before in another thread verbatim, then I would be happy to link it in this one. Just contributing to some awareness for a solution to a frustrating situation for many players.


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ChiSqrd

Senior Member

01-05-2013

I like it.


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StrmCkr

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Senior Member

01-05-2013

pretty much wont happen.

the biggest problem with bc is the fact AD damage spells trigger stacks: meaning a team has advantage before any one really gets in close enough for auto attacks,

the Armour pen calculation new order is also a bit of a problem but not as much as the above effect.

Quote:
armour reduction % -> flat reduction -> armour pen % -> flat pen.
over last seasons order of

Quote:
armour reduction % -> flat reduction -> flat pen -> armour pen %
gives roughly a difference of only + ~30 armour not much difference

the real issues is that more and more champs are going higher burst damage over tank builds.

sure, lw bc casues effective armour of < 100 = zero Armour {with mysteries runes for armour pen}

even in last season this still caused the same issues. the difference is you would have 30 more Armour then before = +- 5% more damage protection.

is that really going to save you from an ad caster hitting you down for 300 - 450 ad per attack or more from casting,

no.
{compared to ad bruisers moving in with barely above 200 ad in last years season }


y are ad bruziers going for bc and burst ? because they get to hit you for free stacks before they move in = edge, now all the ranged abilities can hit you for free damage with out them having to engage head to head, and they have also given their team an advantage at the same time by weaking for others to pick on.

is this going to change anytime this season not really.

ad spells triggering bc stacks is here to stay this season.

only defense High hp moderate armour and good CC composition in your teams for single target issolation and cutting down.


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Mestar

Member

01-05-2013

Buy thornmail and let them deal as much true damage as they want. Stack HP and Life Steal.

*Edit* That is, when there isn't an ad caster.


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Beaumains

Senior Member

01-08-2013

If Riot opted to convert BC armor shred to armor pen (as the OP suggests), they might as well remove it. Please bear in mind that, while these 2 items do synergize, they do not do so with perfect efficiency; namely, nobody on the enemy team is going to have both of them (unless everyone on your team has a Randuin's Frozen Gauntlet combo), because doing 40% less true damage isn't as good as doing 23% less physical damage (numbers not empirically derived), and therefore any noob who does stack those two deserves to be ignored. The solution to the more common iteration (a burst AD-caster w/ BC and an AD carry w/ LW) is actually pretty simple: Step 1) get health to go along with your armor; Warmogs, Omen, Mallet, and Rylai's are good choices; Step 2) focus and kill the carry first, just like you've always done.


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Darthbob131

Member

01-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaumains View Post
Please bear in mind that, while these 2 items do synergize, they do not do so with perfect efficiency; namely, nobody on the enemy team is going to have both of them (unless everyone on your team has a Randuin's Frozen Gauntlet combo), because doing 40% less true damage isn't as good as doing 23% less physical damage (numbers not empirically derived), and therefore any noob who does stack those two deserves to be ignored.
Kha'zix strongly disagrees with this. True AD casters/assassins, those who rely primarily on their skills rather than autoattacks, have high enough base damages on their skills that penetration often trumps huge 'pure AD' items.

Yes, a Bloodthirster will give 60 more Attack Damage than Last Whisper, but when you can put that carry down to 0 armor you can one shot them with your skills and maybe even get out. What's better is that with two rotations of skills you can take out the bruiser instead if you can't get to the carry. And if you cut black cleaver you're forgetting the utility it brings with CDR and extra health, never mind the all important Flat Penetration.

Now, the reason I say Kha'zix specifically is because if you build 4000 health and he has a BC and LW and you only have 100 armor you're going to be in for a surprise when you go from your last 1000 health to dead in one Q, assuming he evolved it for the delicious 12% of missing health execute.


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Autocthon

Senior Member

01-08-2013

BC+LW is working as intended. Everything going on is exactkly as Riot intends (give or take)

Immortal tanks were stupid