Revert athene's unholy grail?

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Pianoman7117

Senior Member

01-03-2013

Please? It might've been slightly more expensive but it was worth it, AP carries are really hurting now and they could use some help like this..

edit: some important quotes from the thread to catch others up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pianoman7117 View Post
The deathcap nerf is honestly one of the biggest problems...it requires every AP caster to build heavier AP items just to achieve the same amount of damage they used to, and now that athenes was nerfed, it basically makes it unviable because now they can't achieve the high AP they could before, and they fall off so fast because of it even at fed full build.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMelchorI View Post
this man understands.

ap casters need a general increase on all their items to compensate for the loss on dcap. every item below 100 ap needs an increase of about 5 to 10 ap.

increasing athenes ap to 70 and morellos to 85 would be a start. i dont care if they get a little more expensive in return.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pianoman7117 View Post
In all honesty, I'd like to see where AP carries and AD carries are on the same level, just their damage is dealt in different ways..and as of right now, AD carries have more expensive items at their disposal...
let's look at the most expensive items in the game at the moment:

Trinity Force: 4200, AD carries, AD casters, etc
Mercurial Scimitar: 3810, Ranged AD carries, melee AD carries
Infinity Edge: 3800, Ranged AD carries, melee AD carries
Ravenous Hydra: 3500, Melee AD carries, tanky AD DPS
Hextech gunblade: 3400, Hybrids
Iceborn Gauntlet: 3400, even with 40AP the sheen proc makes it used on AD carries (ezreal!!!)
Frozen Mallet: 3300, tanky AD DPS
Runic Bulwark: 3200, tanks, supports
Maw of Malmortius: 3200, tanky AD DPS
Rabadon's deathcap: 3200, AP carries

it isn't until the 10th most expensive item does the deathcap show up....is this really fair that AP carries can't have as much depth as AD carries when AD carries have 3 of the most expensive items in the game dedicated to them and the most expensive AP is down in 10th? (I know its tied with two other items but you get where I'm going with this..
50 likes, thanks for the support guys! Who knows maybe we can get a red in here to express their stance on this.

How about some more maths to show just how badly AP carries have been hurt over this season 3 update...

typical AP carry build before change: (also including +5% AP and +20 AP from masteries just as a general addon)

Sorc shoes: + 20 spellpen, 1100g
Rabadon's Deathcap: 140 AP +30% AP, 3600g
Athene's unholy grail: 90 AP, 2950g
Rylai's Crystal Scepter: 80 AP, 3105g
Zhonya's Hourglass: 100 AP, 3100g
Void Staff: 70 AP 40% spellpen, 2295g

giving a total: 675AP 40% +20 spellpen for 16150g

same AP carry build now:

Sorc shoes: + 15 spellpen, 1100g
Rabadon's Deathcap: 120 AP +25% AP, 3200g
Athene's unholy grail: 60 AP, 2800g
Rylai's Crystal Scepter: 80 AP, 2900g
Zhonya's Hourglass: 100 AP, 3100g
Void Staff: 70 AP 35% spellpen, 2295g

giving a total: 585AP 35% +15 spellpen for 15395g

Let's start completely disregard the fact that the spell pen went down as it is, and lets compare...

675AP for 16150 comes out to around 480 gold per 20 AP
585AP for 15395 comes out to around 520 gold per 20 AP

To those arguing:
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Blind Moron View Post
Yes, let's just increase Kat's power even more. Let's make it so she can get pentakills even without a full build. APCs are just fine the way they are.

AFAIC, this is just a "i play APC and want to three-hit everyone with my combo. roitpls" thread.

But since disagreeing with an upvoted post is considered 'edgy' it won't be long before my post is hidden.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pianoman7117 View Post
actually this argument has been used over and over and guess what...if Katarina is the only AP carry that is capable of doing this, then clearly there is something wrong with Katarina and not AP carries in general. this is not an I play APC and want to three hit everyone thread...you're just a whiny baby trying to go against the grain...

If katarina is the only AP carry able to do this, then clearly this is a katarina problem, it is not fair that all AP items got nerfed just because Katarina is too strong.
To those arguing that Magic resist got nerfed as well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Autocthon View Post
The nerfs weren't actually that massive tbh. Unless you're talking dedicated MR builds.

Lost FoN (78 MR)
Lost: 8 MR on Guardian Angel (if you built that for MR)
Lost: 17 MR from BV+Abyssal Combined
Gained: 30 MR on Bulwark
Gained: 20 MR on Spirit Visage

Total Change = 53 MR lost in a dedicated MR build
Total MR = 230
Total MR on champ = 260

In a non-dedicated MR build though you're talking something like 15-20 MR variance (and that's probably stretching it). It's easy to hit 180 MR on any champ with scaling MR and scaling MR runes with three items.

Merc's
Bulwark
GA

You hit 200 by using SV over GA, and you gain HP too. In general practice tanks still have the raw stats they had before the item rework with minimal variance outside of dedicated builds.

The only real difference is that offensive champs have more effective ways to deal with straight defense stacking. Which makes tanks splashing some damage so they can fight back a lot more effective because teh stronger penetration devalues straight stacking of armor/MR, and the more effective access to %HP damage devalues HP stacking.

Buy an Abyssal already.
and finally to any of those arguing that the spell pen changes have made it easier to cut through magic resist:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pianoman7117
It is thought that the reason spell penetration and AP was nerfed is because of the fact they changed how it was calculated, in that now percentage came before flat...well let's do a little test. Keep in mind AP was majorly nerfed as well and it was thought the penetration changes attributed to this.

S2 was +20, then 40%

S3 is 35%, then +15

Let's say you're only building sorc shoes and a void staff...

against a 50 resist target:

S2 comes out 32 resist removed, 18 remaining resist

S3 comes out to 32.5 resist removed, 17.5 remaining resist

against a 75 resist target

S2 comes out to 42 resist removed, 33 remaining resist

S3 comes out to 41.25 resist removed, 33.75 remaining resist

against a 100 resist target

S2 comes out to 52 resist removed, 48 remaining resist

S3 comes out to 50 resist removed, 50 remaining resist

against a 150 resist target

S2 comes out to 72 resist removed, 78 remaining resist

S3 comes out to 67.5 resist removed, 82 remaining resist

This season was clearly an enormous nerf to AP and to those who think they're actually penetrating more in Season 3 are actually feeling the placebo effect


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Skilliard

Senior Member

01-03-2013

It gives you an insane amount of mana regen, it used to be very op.There was no reason to build it over morellos evil tome.


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Pianoman7117

Senior Member

01-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skillmaster19 View Post
It gives you an insane amount of mana regen, it used to be very op.There was no reason to build it over morellos evil tome.
And there still is no reason to build morellos evil tome ever...


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Battletick

Senior Member

01-03-2013

I'd love this, might as well also revert deathcap. Season 3 patch was just a global nerf to all AP casters.


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WillCotton01

Member

01-03-2013

morrelos is seceretly op now, 20% cdr , cheap as, and healing debuff permanently


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Pianoman7117

Senior Member

01-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battletick View Post
I'd love this, might as well also revert deathcap. Season 3 patch was just a global nerf to all AP casters.
I agree with this, I think that'd perfectly balance ad and ap back out


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Ternce

Senior Member

01-03-2013

I'd also love this. It was a Tier 3 item that was reduced to a Tier 2 item.

I also want my Force of Nature Back. Spirit Visage isn't nearly as good, and I'd love more options for MR in general.


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xGary

Senior Member

01-03-2013

AP carries need some love. In S2, games were already AD heavy with ADC bot, and AD top and jungle 99% of the time. Not sure why they decided to further nerf AP carries in S3...


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Nbur

Senior Member

01-03-2013

name it something else and all problems are fixed.


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FighterRanger

Senior Member

01-03-2013

Eh, idk if this will solve anything. Athenes is an ap item to help during laning phase and countering ap damage. That helps them a lot against other mages, but not a whole lot against bruisers or AD casters, which seems to be where the problem lies.

Now, I would agree that Athenes seems weak right now, but I think AP carries would be better off in the current meta if there were buffs to items like Zhonyas, Rylais, or Rod of Ages. (since hp seems to be the best counter to BC now)


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