When is the banning system going to change?

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Good Vi

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01-07-2013

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Originally Posted by Verxl View Post
It works better with DotA where the game is more about hard countering the other team whenever possible. Most of the decisions that give you an advantage aren't gameplay decisions, they're champ pick/ban or itemization decisions. It ends up boiling down to that rock-paper-scissors agreement, and the actual "game" has nothing to do with the gameplay unless mechanical skills are vastly different.

This is something they don't want with League. That's why there are so few absolute hard counters in this game, and why they don't want to introduce weaving bans.
True you do have a point there. Everything about the Dota system is about counterpicking, but I don't think that is a bad thing for LoL. Sure, your team comp might get countered, but that already happens now with the current system, it wouldn't be much different with the proposed one. Personally, I like it when hardcounters are chosen, as that creates excitement in the game, as you watch that lane to see how someone will react to the situation and how they deal with it. While at the same time with this system, you have a chance to counter out that hardcounter with one of your own or ban out the people who can support that person to make their counter even better.

The one thing that I will concede with the proposed system is that draft times will be extended, and at the professional level, quite long. Drafts in Dota I've seen go well over 10 min, and with dodging the way it is, it would be quite cumbersome to sit through drafts over and over, especially if you have two good strategic captains who are matching wits against one another. The system def isn't for the impatient, but in the end I think it would be a nice, and good change. One way to do it is as proposed in another post earlier: Add it as a separate mode/choice for custom games and if it becomes really popular, maybe add a separate queue for it and see how much people like it over the current one.

Although, LoL really needs, IMO, a reverse draft. Now that would be fun!


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Iner7ia

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01-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verxl View Post
It works better with DotA where the game is more about hard countering the other team whenever possible. Most of the decisions that give you an advantage aren't gameplay decisions, they're champ pick/ban or itemization decisions. It ends up boiling down to that rock-paper-scissors agreement, and the actual "game" has nothing to do with the gameplay unless mechanical skills are vastly different.

This is something they don't want with League. That's why there are so few absolute hard counters in this game, and why they don't want to introduce weaving bans.
Thanks for the Zileas quote, but I don't really agree with the above comment. If anything, I think that LoL is much more obvious in terms of counterpicking than DotA is. I don't know how much you know about DotA, but I don't think that picking Batrider as a counter to Templar Assassin is anywhere near as bad as seeing Talon against Ahri. Although itemization decisions and picks/bans are very important to DotA, I think that DotA also has a much stronger element of teamwork. In League of Legends, it's more about outfarming your lane opponent or killing them, getting ahead, and buying items before they do. An AD carry lane is a pretty good example of this, as it's probably the least diverse item building lane. It comes down to who farms better, who doesn't die to the jungler/opposing carry. In DotA, you have more chances to come back by strategically choosing items and teammates and choosing your battles. You shouldn't lose the lane the moment a Blitzcrank zones you.

Anyway, I'm also going to respond a little bit to the Zileas quote. I see some of what he's saying. Most of it is pretty agreeable, but I do have a couple disputes. One of them is in regards to the "S tier" champions. While I do agree with him that some of the latest champions Riot has released have started off more balanced, the fact that there are certain S tier champions that always need to be banned is a little dumb to me. In DotA, there are definitely a handful of champions that are often picked or banned, but I think that these champions change much more rapidly than they do in League of Legends. I haven't been able to keep up with DotA recently, but for example, Dark Seer, Broodmother, Sand King, and Shadow Demon used to almost always be among the first 6 bans, or at least picked or banned at some point. Now, I can't remember the last time I saw a Sand King or Broodmother, and Dark Seer is still seen often but doesn't seem to be banned nearly as much anymore. Even Shadow Demon is becoming a little less common. I feel that this whole "Blitz/Alistar/Malphite/Shen/Cho'Gath" thing has been going for a little while now. I'm getting a little off topic, but what I'm trying to say is that League of Legends seems to have some champions that are just always better, to the point that they may as well be removed from available champions in draft because they are almost NEVER playable. It renders the bans pointless.

In regards to banning signature champions, that's completely understandable. Of course, everyone wants to see their favorite player play their best champion. However, I think it works pretty well as it is in DotA. For one thing, it forces good players to have more than one really good champion. Therefore, it actually makes it more likely that you'll see them play at their highest level. Another thing, is that it makes the actual games more entertaining to watch. I'll use a pretty good example here, but it won't make sense if you don't know about the DotA community. One of the best DotA teams in the world, and almost certainly the best in Europe, is Natus Vincere (Na'Vi). One of their star players, Dendi, is notorious for his playing of Pudge. In the first DotA 2 international tournament, Na'Vi basically won because of this. In the second international, almost every team respect-banned Pudge because of this. However, I believe either in TI2 or in a tournament shortly after, some teams didn't ban Pudge and he didn't get picked up. Eventually, they must have just thought that Dendi wasn't going to pick him. But then he did. The game was an absolute faceroll. It was hilarious and enjoyable, but I wouldn't want to see that every game. Also, while we're talking about Dendi, I haven't seen him play Pudge for a while, but I always look forward to seeing him play Batrider, Templar Assassin, and Magnus because he's very good with all of those champions as well.

TL;DR There should be less perma-bans. The game needs to be balanced more often. Signature bans are okay sometimes because they force players to essentially have more signature champions. In other words, it adds variety to the meta. Players need to react to bans so that THEY don't get countered, rather than just who they play as. It's okay to associate Dendi with Pudge or Westrice with Akali, but do you REALLY want to watch Westrice play nothing except for Akali every single game? I don't. More bans helps prevent a stagnant meta.

That's just my opinion. Still though, thanks for the input. It's perfectly okay if at the end of this thread I find myself to be wrong, as long as there is good reason for me to see why the system is the way it is. I'm just not convinced yet.

Edit: Jeez, sorry about the wall of text. Got a little ahead of myself.


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Iner7ia

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01-07-2013

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Xyltin

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01-07-2013

Riot already said that changes will be made for S3.
Probably 5-6 bans per side.


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Iner7ia

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01-07-2013

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Originally Posted by Xyltin View Post
Riot already said that changes will be made for S3.
Probably 5-6 bans per side.
Can you link me a source for that? Because now I'm seeing two different stories. One person said, and quoted Zileas saying that it probably wouldn't happen, and now you're saying that it will. Not doubting you, just looking for equivalent evidence for comparison.


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Iner7ia

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01-07-2013

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01-08-2013

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Fortunae

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01-08-2013

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