[Discussion]Starting item on mages

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T8mNEiLGTw

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Senior Member

11-30-2009

I would consider meki pendant + 2 health pots a really viable 4th option, for the following reasons:

1) lets first compare it to a sapphire:
sapphire : 200 mana (400g)

meki pendant: 7 mana per 5 seconds. (390g)
This means 84 mana per minute, or 200 mana in 2 minutes 23 seconds.

This actually means that if you stay in lane for more then 2m 23s (wich is VERY likely) you have gained more mana from a meki pendant then you would have had from a sapphire.
This way you can use more spells, and use them more often. With all that extra harassment your opponent is more likely to have to retreat.

Sure, you can buy 10 mana pots for the price of 400g and get 1000 mana to play around with.
But this will only help you in the laning phrase, and your first important item will be delayed.

2) recipes that use meki/sapphire

Sapphire: Catalyst, Tear, Sheen and Rylai's (but this isn't an early game item)

Catalyst is no doubt a fantastic item, and it builds into some other amazing items that can benefit almost everyone. (PS: it will get nerfed hard in the next patch...)

Tear is very useful on many champions, especially casters. The potential enormous increase in maximum mana (compared to its cost its even more insane). The only downside is that it has to 'grow' to have the full benefit of it. This probably wont happen until mid-late game.

Sheen has its uses but there only is a minority that will get it as their first item (afaik).

Meki: Chalice, Fiendish codex and Philosopher's stone (which not really great, i agree with that)

Chalice gives, on the long term, a very big amount of mana, for a really low price (890g).
It only gives a minor increase in mana regen at first sight (7mp/5 -> 7,5mp/5) but its passive makes up for this in many ways: 1% bonus regen per 1% mana you are missing...
Mid game you will find yourself low on mana many times (if you are using your spells often, which you should as a caster). The extra 80% mana regen (if u have only 20% mana left) helps getting your mana up to full in a very short period of time. Faster then you would have got back in one or two levels gained with a Catalyst. Its also less random (you cant really decide to level up whenever you want...).
The % bonus also applies to all your other sources of mana regen, including runes, masteries and natural regeneration. You also get some magic resist, which helps you quite a lot, depending on your opponents.
Conclusion: you wont need to go back to base to regen mana anymore.

Fiendish codex: A cheap source of cooldown reduction, AP and mana regen. 30 AP makes your spells hit harder. You can use your spells about 10% more often. And the mana regen allows you to actually have the mana to cast these spells. These are all things that benefit a caster really well.




So a meki pendant enables you to cast more spells, if you can keep casting your spells. It has a more limited choice of recipes then a sapphire, but a chalice is just useful on almost everyone.

tl;dr: when laning Meki > Sapphire, and mid game Meki = Sapphire.


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Wortel

Junior Member

12-02-2009

The problem with Tear, Codex, and Chalice is that they cost quite a lot (for the early game) and don't add to the by far most important stat for mages early on: HP. Low HP heroes will get continuously ganked in high ELO games.

Also, in late game, if you go Rod of Ages (which you should in my opinion) you will have a lot of mana - no regen, but enough to sustain you through the important team fights. It is nice to regen it all back quickly after the team fights, but I view this is as a luxury - if I can cast all I can through the team fights and I survive, then I did my job. Luxuries are nice, but I'd rather spend my money on stuff that will actually help our team win the fights.

I think Chalice is a nice item but not on mages, more for caster melees like Cho'gath who don't need health early on.

Anyway now that Catalyst is nerfed (a deserved nerf in my opinion), what do you guys think about the option of Doran's Ring first instead of Sapphire first? I like it on Janna since the mana regen allows for more Zephyr harassment (if they allow it), or more Eye spam which will greatly boost your last hitting potential and is antiharassment in one; so through last hitting more efficiently it will pay back some of the gold cost of the Ring. Item slots are not an issue since games should end after you make 4 good items anyway.


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Riotcontrol

Member

12-20-2009

"starter items" like doran's ring are awesome at lvl 1 till u get killed or B the first time, but in the long run its 400ish gold that dont turn into nothing, selling them also doesnt give much back and if you play decently it wont make much of a difference.

The starter item is all about what champion you have, what your gonna build into and your playstyle.

For example: Veigar, one of my favorites. You can start many ways on him, depending how u play, who ur facing, and the current patch balance.
Veigar needs mana regen, loads of AP and some health since hes quite weak, his playstile is mostly one shot the enemies quickly or support the team from behind, either way you need to stay alive long enough to throw your combo hence the health, and you need loads of ap to make sure you kill fast, also make sure you have enough mana so you dont run out mid of combo. If any of these factors fails, your dead. So instead of building him to balance his weakness, like some annie players who go for lots of health and armor/mr, I go for full offense to make sure I kill my opponent, even if i die after.
On top of all this you gotta aim for your role in team, are you gonna be harassing constantly from the start, go more balanced for mid game? or slowly build a killing machine for late game?

With all this in mind its very hard to specify a static item order for other players, since they might not fight decently with it, the best is to try different combinations and with practice build your own.

Practical exampls:
Im using veigar as he is a pure caster/nuker that can be fitted in several different ways.
for reference Id like to point this guide wich is NOT mine but very good and fits my ideas:
http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...ad.php?t=14906

You can see three setups there, and a good explanation of how to play them and what are they for, theres one quick setup with lots of spell penetration, some ap and cooldown reduction, it is built quite fast and cheap and very efficient in short games. The second setup is more of a pro ganker, using high risk item like mejai, very good if you dont die, if you do die, wich happens even to the best, becomes quite mediocre. Finally the third setup, is quite hard to play at early game, you wont kill much even during the mid game, but on long games it becomes a beast that one shots even tanks.

All of them share the catalyst and the rod of ages, because it just fits perfectly on veigar and on most casters, health and mana plus ap its just the staple of any mana using caster, I use it even on singed, Cho or Ashe, so it fits pretty much any champion that uses mana and ap, even with the nerf.
So my favorite start is the mana crystal and 1health pot + 1 mana pot. I dont need 2 health pots because I play agressive, and all the mana is used to Harass, the best defense is a good offense, keep them on their toes and they wont have time to formulate an attack plan and so you dont need much regen/health. I go for boots and health crystal right after to survive longer since the enemies should be starting to get counter agressive by then, and finally finish catalyst and boots, wich then go for rod of ages if you need ap or just leave it in catalyst till 18 if your going for the magic bubble.

Exceptions: Very aggresive champions early game, like Nunu always spamming the ice bolt thing, or a minion farmer like sivir or master yi (ghost skill thing). This require loads of mana so a chalice first can work better, as long as you keep harrasing and on the offensive, you wont need the health.

Allright, this became a testament, more like a guide..

summary:
Very agressive mana intensive play: Meki pendant -> chalice
Passive/agressive: crystal -> catalyst
Defensive / farm only : Regrowth pendant into philosophers or any of the smaller regen items like health beads + mana charm if they build into something your gonna use.

Depending on what you gonna build next, the starter item is allready part of it, making you reach that item that will shift the fight in your favor as soon as possible, items like dorans ring can make the early game easyer but Id recommend it only to begginers, at intermediate/advanced level of play with a certain champion, its better to go more specific.


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The Senate

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Senior Member

12-20-2009

Depending on the caster, either Chalice, Tear or Catalyst should be your first item.


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Kelin

Senior Member

01-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Landa View Post
Normally I take the saphire crystal + 2 health pots so I can build it into catalyst quickly (which will keep you full on mana for most of the early mid game. But this is only viable if you take teleport. Since going back for a catalyst without teleport is loosing 1 and a half levels.
Side not to 1.5 levels, if you take turns with your lane partner it's a lot less, 0.5 level at most.

Cheers


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Gaeb

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Senior Member

01-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by FalseMyrmidon View Post
I always go with Crystal + 2 health pots. Meki takes 2 minutes 22 seconds to regen 200 mana (the amount a Crystal would have given you). Fairie charm takes a little over 5 minutes to regen 200 mana.

I usually run with teleport so I just blue pill and teleport back if I run out of mana.
On Janna, I'd disagree, on the other two, I almost always go Crystal + 2 health pot.

On Janna, her early game tornado is great for lane domination/harassment. It's also very expensive. I've been able to stay in lane for 10M no problem with just Meki + 2 health pot and never come near death just through Tornado harassment -- I aim at the creep waves, but I hit the champs on a regular basis, and if I want to fight at their tower, that's where we fight usually.

I think I'd do crystal more if I saw more difficult opponents, but my last games I've had total lane domination with Janna for the most part, and the mana regen is a big component of being able to go longer than 2 min. That said, Crystal is a very viable alternative, and Catalyst is a great first item on any char. (Ed: Should add that Meki is for building eventual Nashor's, and that +CDredux on Janna for 'nado spam is good - but Catalyst is a better first item, regardless.)


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Gaeb

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Senior Member

01-08-2010

Also, Doran's ring is a surprisingly good buy on several chars - but not necessarily as a starter item. Nunu's the only char I typically go Doran's first on.


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Tyrfang

Senior Member

01-08-2010

5th Option (Haunting Guise Route):
Faerie Charm
5x HP Pots
3x Mana Pots

or...
Faerie Charm
3x HP Pots
1x Mana Pots
1x Vision/Sight Ward

I usually go the first route and it provides me enough to hit Level 5/6 in a duo without pilling. The second route is fine for a solo lane (esp. solo 2v1 lanes). If there are no stealthers get a sight ward and an extra Pot of your choice.

EDIT: Also, Mana pots (according to the in-game description) only give 100 mana, not 200.


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zoau

Senior Member

01-08-2010

i dont understand why dorans items are considered such an advantage. if you want to spend some gold on early game OPnes get an elixir and some drink of your choice. when its about mana regen nothing beats the blue buff and im sure you can in some way design your team to get that one ASAP. you + a physical attacker + a mastery improved rally is sufficient in most cases. however this is on the assumption you play premades (never heard of a solo queuer with 36-22), for thread readers who solo like me i recommend getting sapphire+ 2 hp or + 1hp 1 mp because it builds into useful things. for ryze i build tear as he has wicked low cooldowns and charges it in no time PLUS his overload profits from more mana. i have not played AP teemo and janna much so cant say for them.


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Gaeb

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Senior Member

01-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoau View Post
i dont understand why dorans items are considered such an advantage. if you want to spend some gold on early game OPnes get an elixir and some drink of your choice. when its about mana regen nothing beats the blue buff and im sure you can in some way design your team to get that one ASAP. you + a physical attacker + a mastery improved rally is sufficient in most cases. however this is on the assumption you play premades (never heard of a solo queuer with 36-22), for thread readers who solo like me i recommend getting sapphire+ 2 hp or + 1hp 1 mp because it builds into useful things. for ryze i build tear as he has wicked low cooldowns and charges it in no time PLUS his overload profits from more mana. i have not played AP teemo and janna much so cant say for them.

So, this branches off mages, but:

Doran's shield is fantastic for survivability against any opponent that outranges you and will outharass you on a carry or tank. In that situation you can go regrowth pendant (does it upgrade to stuff I need?) or vamp sceptre (builds to many things, but useless if you're not hitting things - ie, Tristana vs a good rocket heimer is getting practically 0 value out of a vamp sceptre) or boots + pots (but is that enough of a cusion?) while Doran's gives you some armor (btw one of my rune pages is 17 armor pen, and many mages start below 20 armor) some hp, and very nice hp regen. Doran's shield won't be upgraded, but it's useful the entire game long for most carries/tanks. Good defensive pick.

Doran's ring is an outstanding item for nunu. He needs the mana regen, he has fantastic AP scalars, and the extra HP is fantastic. I've also picked up Doran's rings on Karthus midgame if I'm having trouble farming - it doesn't upgrade to anything, but it provides a good short term boost to ap and survivability. I've experimented with others, Doran's ring is very good but I don't usually get it on a caster over a sapphire - catalayst is just too good an item if you can get it by level 6 or so.


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