Pick Order Rule (Why it doesn't work, and proposed alternative)

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IS16d5da5f8759eedf2de31

Junior Member

02-02-2013

Hi there, I can not understand your reservations concerning the whole "pick > call rule" entirely. I will try to explain my point of view.

First I have to state that I am by far not the best LoL player (actually I'm quite atrocious). I myself main support and am in the happy position, that I almost always get the role I want to. But when I don't get support I still have 3 other roles I'm quite stable with.
Second I have been in every Pick spot possible. I always open my pre game chat with a polite greeting and an offer of which roles I'm most comfortable with. Most of the time I get what I want. And yes there can be trolls in your game. BUT now that ranked dodging looses you LP they will get less. Important here is EVEN TROLLS WANT TO WIN. I learned the hard way that I needed to loose my sense of entitlement when joining a draft pick queue.
The important thing I needed to grasp was "I am bad at this game. I need to get better. When I have improved, I will carry myself out of this Elo/Division." Also I find role trolling even worse in Normal queue.

BUT.

Quote:
Anyways, besides that.. what makes an elo based pick order fair either?
Nothing. It is just a way to determine an order. Riot could just RNG it. Doesn't really make it better.

Quote:
So counterpicking would theoretically help a lower elo player to perform well within the given game
This is one of the most basic misconceptions that exist in LoL. Counterpicking does actually matter less in a low Elo situation. Let me explain why. My most played Champion is Annie. When I go to Championselect I see that her counters are most likely Brand, Oriana, Morgana and Kassadin. Now lets analyse why they are counters. Brand is a counter to Annie because he can chain his burst faster than Annie. Oriana can outzone Annie. Morgana has her Blackshield to mitigate some of Annies burst. And Kassadin has his silence and burst. The thing is I beat players that play Brand/Oriana/Morgana/Kassadin regularly with Annie. Why? Because I'm better at LoL? Most certainly not. I am after all the sameish Elo as my counterpart. It is because I know my Champion better than my opponent and can win against them in lane. Counterpicks matter at a high Elo where both players can use every little advantage a certain Champion has. Even then there is some Champions you are so good at you will most likely beat everything with it.

Quote:
But less skilled players often times don't have much variety in the roles they can play well.. Some of them only play one champion but they're -really- good at it, and suck at everything else
Then play that Champion. If you are REALLY good with that champion you will be able to play them wherever. I have played Annie ADC and made it work. I certainly don't make a habit out of it, and will more likely want to play her Mid, but If you are really good with that Champion make it work with the teamcompostion you got "saddled" with and carry them.

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But I don't think you'd run into near as many of these problems or scenarios if roles were picked before going into queue.
.

But how do you determine the roles? Think about two months ahead: You will say: There was the Meta of APMid, Bruiser Top, ADC/SUP Bot and something in the Jungle. Silly people we were then. Now we have a lategame Tankkiller bot. The support goes mid with the ADC to roam and gank. And our AP damage will come out of the Jungle or top, while we have something with major cc in the other role. Now I don't have a Crystal ball and I am not a top theorycrafter, but new Itemization will most certainly influence the meta, new Champions will do that too. The Meta is always evolving, always changing. Even with role queueing you still will face trolls that trollqueued for a specific role(There are always douces on the internet).

The thing is: Draft pick is set up in a way that there will always be an (dis)advantage to the team currently picking. Firstpick has the advantage to snatch a desired Champion, Second/Third can try and counter that champion, but must give information about teamcomposition away to Forth/Fifth pick, where the picking/giving away information will continue to Sixth/Seventh and Eight/Ninth and finally to Tenth pick who can make or break his team with the perfect pick. How will you determine seeding in a role specific queue? Must Mid pick always last? Doesn't the person who is tenth pick have an unfair advantage then? Does the person who has firstpick? What about Champion trading and strategic picking?

There may not be a rule set in stone "pick>call" BUT you agreed to the Summoner Code that strongly advises you to be decent and fill places that are left over, even if you got "screwed" by someone who picked before you.
If your Fizz jungle is amazing, play him support and run a kill lane bot, play him Liandrys/Rylais/Warmongs/Voidstaff/Nashors for Top or Bruisercarry Bot, or even as a shockingly boring standard Mid.


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Silcoon

Junior Member

02-04-2013

Hey man what's up? Remember me? Since you're on the topic of open mindedness, I just wanted to talk about your obscene hatred for gays. You quoted that "they should all be eliminated" and that "they should seek treatment" while I was stating that my name was for comical purposes and not ethical (for lack of a better word) ones. This viewpoint of yours seems a tad contradictory to the open-mindedness aspect of this thread that you have posted about bashing the Pick Order System. With that said, I just wanted to once again remind you that you're a freak and I'm now going to lock my door every night because of the conversation I had with you.

Thank You


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Zykritch

Member

02-05-2013

Anyone who posted a mindless and baseless comment about pick order being flawless.. (with no reasoning behind it at all) .. Your comments really aren't needed. Just an fyi. There is not a pick order rule as far as anyone here can prove or tell.. Only people who support the very inefficient concept.. It does -not- work well.. It has not worked well.. And trying to falsely psychoanalyze my reason for looking down upon it when the -actual- reasoning is listed quite clearly in the beginning of the post is quite a waste of time.. Really, take your trash elsewhere.

@Arm8thendae I understand a lot of your viewpoints, many of which I don't disagree with.. The meta is always changing, of course.. But again, this is theoretically to be amended more so than used as a replacement.. As in an added queue/gametype.. Not a replacement to the current.. So if anyone dislikes it, let them use the old one.. If the meta changes, for the most part the entire community falls into accepting that meta change at one point or another. Obviously during transitions between metas there will be conflict, but are there not already? .. The 'pick order' draft method vs the queue'ing with role method will both run into that problem.. Not much can be done about it.. transitions are tough.. It gets fixed with time. As far as counterpicking in lower elos, I'm simply trying to see the little benefit there may be in an elo based pick order when you go into draft/ranked.. In the low elos there are plenty of people who are far more skilled than their rank may say they are.. and thus counterpicking very much so may matter.. To others, they just look up a counter on the internet, pick it mindlessly and have not a clue as to how or -why- it is a counter to the given champion, and get their butt's kicked anyways. It depends on the player.

Midnight, don't get me started on your verbal homosexual lusting for people on the internet over the all channel.. Last I heard pedophilia was looked down upon. Either way that's not the topic of this post and I really don't care to hear it here.. Nor do I care to hear you twisting my words. This is quite a waste of your time and my own. Glad to know I made my point though. People who say the things you do -deserve- to live in fear with doors closed.

I am open-minded about solutions to the game.. not quite so to the perverted habits (or desires) of the demented.

--
PS. I've said it once before, and I'll say it again.. Your name says it all.


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Feleas

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oz SammyD X View Post
People mad cause they never get to pick first, so sad....

Pick Order>Calls

deal with it...
Straight out of the troll's mouth. lol


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IS16d5da5f8759eedf2de31

Junior Member

02-06-2013

Quote:
As in an added queue/gametype.. Not a replacement to the current..
I can promise you that Riot will be very very careful before adding new Queuetypes into LoL. What they dread most is a fragmentation of their playerbase (one reason why we haven't seen new maps in LoL). You would need at least 2 new queue types to support pick role queues. For every map they support. That leads to smaller playerbase in the queues and longer queue times. And you don't want to do that (especially in TT or Dominion).

Quote:
I'm simply trying to see the little benefit there may be in an elo based pick order when you go into draft/ranked..
As I said there is none. The elo difference in a ranked queue should be a delta of 50-100 elo, that is no real skill difference you can measure.

The main gripe I would have with a new picking system, is that how would you structure pick and bans to remain fair and tactical? As I said before there is a (dis-)advantage of everyone still missing assignment to a role and thus you can pick strategic, try to fool your enemy into a pick mistake while always giving information away by picking. Assigning a role(because this will cause horrendous confusion if people can select for more roles than one, or the queue system itself must assign a role) before starting a queue will then leave you in the disadvantage of always having someone who is able to counterpick and the other one always being in the to be counterpicked spot.

Also with a new pick ur role first queue you don't exclude role trolls, trolling will always happen.

I think Riot will need to revisit pick and banning in draft pick, simply because there is far too many champions available. I also don't think that a simple increase in ban slots will help much. But I don't think role queueing will help either.


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ArcanaZeroOne

Senior Member

05-21-2013

If I have picked a top laner already, you as 3rd pick can not do the same, the code says to pick something the team DOESNT have, and if 1st pick took top then why would we need another top.

Grow up, its not our fault you always get last pick and never get what you want.


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Arcticfury

Senior Member

05-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShadeGamer View Post
If I have picked a top laner already, you as 3rd pick can not do the same, the code says to pick something the team DOESNT have, and if 1st pick took top then why would we need another top.

Grow up, its not our fault you always get last pick and never get what you want.
Well at the time this thread was made Riot hadn't taken an official stance and though I don't agree with everything they suggest, I do agree that we needed an official stance and some clarity on how to pick and who gets what.

Now, however, Riot had made an official stance with multiple Reds giving legitimate reasons why Pick order now trumps Call order. They did say though, that this is temporary as they are working on a better system, but in the mean time it is:

Working with team for best comp>Pick Order>Call Order

So we should work together, when two people are too stubborn or they just can't come to an agreement in the time given, then first pick gets the role.

It is now official and this thread belongs melded with the other threads.


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PixelPurge

Junior Member

05-21-2013

We need to change the summoners code then


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Arcticfury

Senior Member

05-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PixelPurge View Post
We need to change the summoners code then
Why? Working together is still the code, however when that isn't possible the temporary answer is pick order over call order. Since it's temporary and not the end goal why should they make a temporary change? It was announced and is the official stance for now, that is good enough.


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neg9

Member

05-21-2013

funny that one of your arguments is that with pick order, you might end up with a mid who has a 20% win rate mid-lane. How does your proposal solve that problem? You will still be matched with a mid who is bad at it sometimes. Whether they got there by pick order, call order, or by role select pre-Q.

The reality is that a good player will almost never take a mid champ with 1st pick. They will go jungle or support so they don't get countered. And if you have a bad player on your team, they will feed no matter what lane they are in.

To the point about rudeness in taking a lane that someone else called first. How is it less rude to be a split second faster connecting to chat, and claiming dominance over the others in the room who would like the same role? If 2 people want the same role, why is it less rude to say, "I called it first" as if you were an eight year old? There should be a discussion at that point as to witch champ you 2 want to play fits in with the total team best. Or some other reasonable compromise. Any other way to solve the dispute is infantile.