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Pick Order Rule (Why it doesn't work, and proposed alternative)

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Zykritch

Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
FirstChoice:
They are allowed to pick whatever they want to pick because they have the priority and higher elo. This isn't practical competitively, but nobody plays with strangers in competitive.


Also.. this post isn't in reference exclusively to ranked.. There isn't "pick" based on your elo in draft pick or normal games.. Literally, I am addressing ranked, draft pick normals, and even to an extent.. the blind pick games.. (as far as suggestion for blind, obviously not pick order) And yet again, it is addressing all elo ranges, not just exclusively diamond elo which is a very small minority of league players.

As far as your reason for them having a higher pick order? "Because they have priority" literally means nothing.. at all. They only have "priority" because they have pick order.. not because they are deserving of it.. And elo doesn't necessarily mean the first pick player is more skilled than the last pick.. often times fantastic players.. even 1600-1700 elo worthy players find themselves stuck in the 1100 elo.. That's what the system has become.. Like it or not. "Higher elo" doesn't guarantee that your first pick with a 20% win ratio mid is going to do a better job in mid lane than your 85% win ratio last pick mid laner. Again, flawed logic.. and an inefficient method being used to enforce it.


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jester82

Senior Member

01-18-2013

Removing picking order is bad idea. Add lots of strategy to any game. To take back your example of Katrina, if I am 1st pick and I pick her, chance are, I will get counter pick.
If I am very good with Katrina and my enemy is alright with his counter pick champ, who do you think will come out on top at the end ?
I understand the problem but I think its more a "role selection" on queue the solution to this, like its been suggested a few times on this board.


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AnxAir

Junior Member

01-18-2013

First off, I have a thread in favor of implementing an explicit "pick order superiority" rule here: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3014628 (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3014628)

I want to address each of your points:

1. According to your logic, we shouldn’t let anyone first pick mid at all. So should first picking mid be a bannable offense? I’m sure you must see how ridiculous this sounds, but that is the next step of what you are saying. Every single role can be counterpicked, but is countering that important at all? No, not really. In fact, many high level players and pros will intentionally counterpick themselves in their matches to practice the matchups, as well as first pick solo lanes and jungle. However, this is besides the point. The real issue here is that you cannot tell someone not to play a role simply because of their pick order.

2. Having a bad game is not a bannable offense. By giving someone mid and harassing them about their performance, you are making everything worse. The point is that you CANNOT tell people they are not allowed to play a role, it’s just asinine that someone thinks that they should have authority to play a lane based on something like that.

3. Role queues stagnate innovation in the game, AND makes it 10x easier for someone who wants to be a toxic player be one, as they can queue support and choose some random champion instead. (Just for your information, iG beat W.E. in Gigabyte Stars Wars (I think it is) while running a bottom lane Lee Sin with a support Pantheon. So unorthodox team comps CAN work even at the highest levels).

4. Who said that they sit there and say nothing? That has never happened to me before in ranked. What I have had, though, is people stating, “I’d like mid, I’m higher pick” and the person calling the role say “okay” and play something else. You seem incredibly against pick order “entitling” you to a role, yet in the same sentence you profess that calling a lane entitles you to that role. Why is it so ridiculous that we use pick order (something that is different from game to game, sometimes you pick first, sometimes last, and everywhere in between) as the ground, rather than the person who types MID MID MID into chat first?

5. The problem isn’t the pick order method, it’s the fact that there ISN’T one. “If you’re the last one to pick, try to fill a niche in your team that hasn’t already been filled.” This is too ambiguous and vague to mean anything, since it can be applied to both sides, you can say that it means calling has priority, or pick order has priority. But that’s the problem. Two people can apply it two different ways and think themselves to both be correct. I don’t understand why you are attacking a rule that doesn’t exist, yet you profess a rule that also doesn’t exist and hail it as far superior.

Also:

Quote:
Røhø:
Shut up troll.


lol, that's a classy response to someone that doesn't agree with your point of view, you sure showed him.


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Zykritch

Member

01-20-2013

You, my friend.. clearly have a problem with putting words into people's mouths.. either that or reading.

I'll outline and then explain to you why each and every one of your points are pointless. You are arguing the possibilities of suggestions that were not even made.. You should reread the original thread and try and find it's actual meaning before arguing against your misinterpretation of it.

Quote:
AnxAir:


1. According to your logic, we shouldn’t let anyone first pick mid at all. So should first picking mid be a bannable offense? I’m sure you must see how ridiculous this sounds, but that is the next step of what you are saying. Every single role can be counterpicked, but is countering that important at all? No, not really. In fact, many high level players and pros will intentionally counterpick themselves in their matches to practice the matchups, as well as first pick solo lanes and jungle. However, this is besides the point. The real issue here is that you cannot tell someone not to play a role simply because of their pick order.



Where, at any point in time did I say we shouldn't let anyone first pick mid at all? I specifically said "unless you can consistently beat your counters" when stating that it was a bad idea.. Did I ever say people should be banned? Did I not specifically say I was addressing all elo ranges (meaning the low elos in which case counterpicks often DO matter) not just the 2k elo? Did I ever at any point in time say I planned on telling someone they couldn't play a role? (or even -because- of pick order?) All questions you apparently have the incorrect answer to, as you are arguing points that were not made.. also known as arguing with yourself.

Quote:
AnxAir:


2. Having a bad game is not a bannable offense. By giving someone mid and harassing them about their performance, you are making everything worse. The point is that you CANNOT tell people they are not allowed to play a role, it’s just asinine that someone thinks that they should have authority to play a lane based on something like that.



Where at any point in time did I say having a bad game was a bannable offense? Where did I say I harassed them about their performance? When did I tell anyone they could not play a role? If you at all read the post.. I never said, anywhere.. that I should have authority to play a lane over someone else because of my skill level, I simply suggested that roles were selected -before- going into queue. Argue that one. Tell me how your precious pick order is superior, please.. go ahead. Mind you, you may want to read my counterlogic in the previous posts before making arguments I already predetermined from people like yourself.. Such as ***** rants about it enforcing the meta (it doesn't if it isn't mandatory).


Quote:
AnxAir:


3. Role queues stagnate innovation in the game, AND makes it 10x easier for someone who wants to be a toxic player be one, as they can queue support and choose some random champion instead. (Just for your information, iG beat W.E. in Gigabyte Stars Wars (I think it is) while running a bottom lane Lee Sin with a support Pantheon. So unorthodox team comps CAN work even at the highest levels).



Uh, yet again.. arguing points that were not made.. This seems to be a habit of yours. I never said there was anything wrong with unorthodox team comps? .. I play fizz jungle, that's unorthodox is it not? Yet it works.. Nothing wrong with that, and I didn't say there was.. As I never said it couldn't work either. It doesn't stagnate innovation.. Where at all did I say your "role" selection would limit your champion choices? If you queue for mid lane and want to AP malphite mid, go for it.. I didn't suggest a block on unorthodox champion choices for specific roles.


Quote:
AnxAir:


4. Who said that they sit there and say nothing? That has never happened to me before in ranked. What I have had, though, is people stating, “I’d like mid, I’m higher pick” and the person calling the role say “okay” and play something else. You seem incredibly against pick order “entitling” you to a role, yet in the same sentence you profess that calling a lane entitles you to that role. Why is it so ridiculous that we use pick order (something that is different from game to game, sometimes you pick first, sometimes last, and everywhere in between) as the ground, rather than the person who types MID MID MID into chat first?



Who said that they sit there and say nothing? .. Uh, nobody has to? Would you like me to fraps record a typical day in draft/ranked team selection? People quite consistently don't say a word in team select, at all.. just pick what they want and completely, deliberately ignore what someone else requested.. They don't even let them know, they just pick a mid laner if they want to go mid and forget entirely about their teammate's request to play that lane.

Why is it ridiculous? Perhaps you should re-read the original post, I stated all the reasons why there.. Punishment trolling highly being among them. Do I think call order is efficient either? No? Did I ever say so? No? So why argue the point? Did I ever say call order entitled you to the lane? No? .. But it certainly makes it inconsiderate when someone just takes it anyways without even having the guts to speak to you or address the fact that you requested it and they're going to take it in spite of it. Again, select a role pre-queue.. Kick vote people who attempt to troll the new system. If it's an unorthodox role such as jungle fizz, don't be so quick to assume players will always kick vote them.. You can always explain to them why/how it works, or show them your match history if you have co-op/customs or previous games that demonstrate it's legitimacy and efficiency so they don't think you a troll.

Quote:
AnxAir:


5. The problem isn’t the pick order method, it’s the fact that there ISN’T one. “If you’re the last one to pick, try to fill a niche in your team that hasn’t already been filled.” This is too ambiguous and vague to mean anything, since it can be applied to both sides, you can say that it means calling has priority, or pick order has priority. But that’s the problem. Two people can apply it two different ways and think themselves to both be correct. I don’t understand why you are attacking a rule that doesn’t exist, yet you profess a rule that also doesn’t exist and hail it as far superior.



At the very top of the post, I asked for the proof of it's existence that so many claim to be real. Did I ever say it was real? No.. But I did argue it just in case it was.. as it's still a method very widely used, and to some pretty ****ty end results as well.

And no, that line can't be used or interpreted as a rule or backup for EITHER concepts/methods.. it is a suggestion, and nothing more.. end of story.. It isn't a rule, it isn't specific.. and it wasn't intended to be a rule. People tried to twist it's meaning and "make it" one. And does a solution have to exist to be superior? No.. That's why it's a concept.. Picking roles before you go into queue IS a superior method.. Call order? Did I really advocate this? Not really.. But I did say it takes an inconsiderate ***** to to blatantly and selfishly ignore what was called without even attempting to sort it out with the one who called it.

---

So, now that I've addressed and explained how each and every one of your arguments were directed at points that were not made.. Can you tell me the purpose of you posting on this thread? .. Since quite clearly, none of what you said was even remotely relevant to statements I made.. rather, they were counters to statements I didn't make at all.. Again, a thing they call arguing with one's self. If you're going to try and dumb down either my logic in why the pick order is inefficient, or how the proposed solution is superior.. at least stay on the same page.. (Meaning, argue points that I actually made.. don't just put words into my mouth and then argue them when I don't even advocate them myself).


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Zykritch

Member

01-20-2013

Quote:
jester82:
Removing picking order is bad idea. Add lots of strategy to any game. To take back your example of Katrina, if I am 1st pick and I pick her, chance are, I will get counter pick.
If I am very good with Katrina and my enemy is alright with his counter pick champ, who do you think will come out on top at the end ?
I understand the problem but I think its more a "role selection" on queue the solution to this, like its been suggested a few times on this board.


Removing -draft- pick would be a bad idea.. Counterpicking and the like is a perfectly legitimate part of the game, and one I quite enjoy participating in.. The draft system is fine.. the method by which people determine the roles they will play in it is not.

Removing pick order? .. From all the facts I have at hand, there isn't a pick order rule to be removed.. Merely morons who support it mindlessly with no real tangible reason for doing so, outside of the fact they want "entitlement" to something. As far as queueing with roles? Yes, it has been suggested a few times in this thread, in this entire forum really.. but, my original post includes that suggestion.


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Cupcake Crusader

Junior Member

01-29-2013

I think the reason so many people fight with pick order vs. pick calling is that elo isn't aways involved and isn't always accurate to that persons skill level. In draft pick, what makes that person first pick other than a random lotto? Why does he deserve it and the people below him don't? In ranked solo/duo, it makes a little more sense that pick order is priority. But at the same time, elo changes so often and so fast that it still doesn't seem like the right thing to do.

I don't think there is a way to solve this problem. Personally I think it all comes down to how nice people are and how stubborn people are. If you ask nicely to play a lane they might let you, but if you out right say no I'm doing that, it makes people mad and they do it anyway. This usually weakens your team comp and results in a loss for those 2 players and their team.

Plus this is all according to the meta that is currently popular. Meta changes and isn't required to play and win. Meta is just another way of saying this is what the pros do so it must be right or the best. Any champion can play any role if they build them that way. Yes champions usually scale better one way and are strong at a certain thing, but that doesn't mean they are limited to it. For example I personally have played lulu for every role. I find it fun and I don't usually lose with her. Jungling lulu may be hard and may make the game more difficult for your team, but you can still win with cooperation.

Summary: There is no way to fix this, people play what they like because they have the most fun playing those champs.


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Zykritch

Member

01-31-2013

Quote:
Cupcake Crusader:
I think the reason so many people fight with pick order vs. pick calling is that elo isn't aways involved and isn't always accurate to that persons skill level. In draft pick, what makes that person first pick other than a random lotto? Why does he deserve it and the people below him don't? In ranked solo/duo, it makes a little more sense that pick order is priority. But at the same time, elo changes so often and so fast that it still doesn't seem like the right thing to do.

I don't think there is a way to solve this problem. Personally I think it all comes down to how nice people are and how stubborn people are. If you ask nicely to play a lane they might let you, but if you out right say no I'm doing that, it makes people mad and they do it anyway. This usually weakens your team comp and results in a loss for those 2 players and their team.

Plus this is all according to the meta that is currently popular. Meta changes and isn't required to play and win. Meta is just another way of saying this is what the pros do so it must be right or the best. Any champion can play any role if they build them that way. Yes champions usually scale better one way and are strong at a certain thing, but that doesn't mean they are limited to it. For example I personally have played lulu for every role. I find it fun and I don't usually lose with her. Jungling lulu may be hard and may make the game more difficult for your team, but you can still win with cooperation.

Summary: There is no way to fix this, people play what they like because they have the most fun playing those champs.


I agree completely with your comparison between pick order as far as ranked versus non.. in one there's an elo-based order and the other it's just.. random? You can slightly manipulate it with the game creator in premades but.. premade queues for the most part usually run smoothly anyways. I understand that people try to keep things within the meta, and that there -are- unorthodox methods/metas and champions that can be played and still work well, but the point of this is not to -fix- pick order.. It's to find an alternative to it. Call order isn't all that efficient either. Honestly, if people could pick roles before going into queue, team select would be an infinitely easier process and you wouldn't see this punishment trolling occurring all of the time.

Anyways, besides that.. what makes an elo based pick order fair either? I'll admit, there is an allowance of counterpicking for whomever is last pick if they're not just stuck with support.. -but- .. I know 1600-1700 elo worthy players who are in an elo that is not at all comparable to what they really are.. meaning they're 1100 due to bad placement matches or duo with 700-800 elo friends and they just.. really had a bad beginning losing streak.. So counterpicking would theoretically help a lower elo player to perform well within the given game, yes.. But less skilled players often times don't have much variety in the roles they can play well.. Some of them only play one champion but they're -really- good at it, and suck at everything else.. It's.. very much so a system that says "Elo is perfect.. elo means 1500 is greater than 1300 without exception.. And, the 1300 mid laner doesn't deserve to play mid lane (80% win ratio or 50% win ratio) because the 1500 elo player has priority over him because he's just better" .. The 1500 player could have -half- the win ratio in that lane as the 1300.. I mean, yes.. in a lot of cases.. With a 200 elo difference like that (I know its rare, but it can occur with varying elo duo queues) well, simply put.. it can very much so be inaccurate and people get stuck playing one role when they would do ten times better with another one.

I could go on all day about the possibilities.. But I don't think you'd run into near as many of these problems or scenarios if roles were picked before going into queue.. And more so than that, it doesn't have to be mandatory? That's a huge part of the point.. Obviously there are complaints if it's enforced and narrowed down solely to this queuing method.. So, just leave both? .. The old and the new. I don't see much of what could go wrong. Those against it are happy, those for it are more so.

Basically, I agree with your observations.. I disagree with the summary that there is no possible solution. There is almost always a solution Thank you for the input though. One of the few who made comments that were actually beneficial.


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Oz SammyD X

Senior Member

02-01-2013

People mad cause they never get to pick first, so sad....

Pick Order>Calls

deal with it...


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Arcticfury

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Pick order will always come first.

Calling doesn't lock anything, but pick order does. So using simple reasoning you can guess which wins. If you're always on bottom then I don't know what to tell you, I'm almost always 1-3 slots and I still try to pick what's left over.

4-5 picks should ALWAYS be used for counters, so calling when you're fifth and bans haven't been done and nothing up there to counter is just plain idiotic. You should lose ELO for thinking differently and probably are.

Now that it's settled let's move on to how to report trolls in pregame.


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Asurael

Junior Member

02-02-2013

Ive never seen this "order" as a rule, but rather as an expression of preference. And if done correctly, it can make things more civil, the problem comes when a player comes along who's too set in stone about their preference, so much so that they lock as soon as they enter the queue.

Ideally, you express the role you want to play, and if someone else wanted to play that role but didn't get to say so first, then he/she should try another role they feel comfortable with. If there is no other available role he/she feels comfortable with, then the team should be told, and other players should readjust for the sake of having a better team. I insist pre-queue role selection or a means of displaying your preferences next to your name might help make this process much easier.

Problems can arise with the current system of course, but if done correctly, then it shouldn't come to that.