Revive: turning bad plays into undeserved wins since 2011

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bierfaust

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by konfetarius View Post
What is this bile fascination with pretending that the team that used revive first magically regains perfect map control and wipes out the the remnants of the initially winning team with no cost?
Oh I don't know, probably the part where the winning team has 2 champions alive on 300 hp each after a big fight, and they now have to defend or neutralise/cap the tower against 3-5 full hp champions that are now less than 5 seconds away form the tower with a movement speed boost.

Cause the 2 champions with 300 hp can totally defend that tower or even keep it neutral for the next 10-20 secs while they wait for the rest of their team to respawn and get back to help them.

Assuming that is even remotely possible (outside of the 1/500 game chance that the champions that survived the team fight are the perfect poke/counters to the enemy champions that revived and are now running top) that the champions that survived could keep that point or keep it neutral until the other 2 members of their team show up and they defend the point. The 2 injured people die, and are now stuck on 20-25 sec respawn timers while the rest of their team, 2 champions, have to defend against 4 attackers.

And the argument of "oh well then Team B should just use their 2 revives and go help defend" is stupid. Why should 1 spell perpetuate this stupid scenario? There is NOTHING skillful nor strategic about hitting a spell that brings you back to life, removes the punishment of death that you deserve for dying, and then lets you get right back into the thick of it to undo a poor mistake or a matter of being outplayed.

That's effectively the same as saying "no that goal doesn't count, we want you to retake that free kick because we made a mistake, you have to go back to square 1 and start again"


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bierfaust

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by konfetarius View Post
Let me put it as simple as possible to you:

When you die needlessly, and blow revive, the impact is that you now have no revive and they still do. If you spend any cooldowns and health during your attempt to clean up after reviving, you will be at the disadvantage when they revive themselves. In the chain of Team A wins, Team B revives and wins, Team A revives and wins, Team A kind of wins. It takes a rather very contrived set of circumstances for team B to actually come out ahead in this exchange.
Which is exactly why this stupid set of circumstances should not exist. There is no need for it to exist, let fights play out as they should, with the better team at that point in time winning and reaping the benefits.

All it does is punish the better team for winning a team fight.

At what point did I say needless death?
If a team fight engages and you get lynched, bad luck, you either weren't in the right position or the other team outplayed you and focused you down.
I'm not talking about someone that dies in a 4v4 and blows revive even though the other 3 people on his team survived just fine. Similarly, if you go for the Windmill as your first fight of the game and you lose, what kind of idiot would just automatically hit revive without first assessing whether they will actually benefit from it. Let the other team take Windmill, you can just try again later. But now they have revive up their sleeve for when they truly get out played when it counts. That is stupid, if you get beaten, it should have an impact. You screwed up at a crucial point in time, you now have to deal with the negative results of that. (oh nope I just hit revive and then go right back in there and completely undo that mistake........)

I'm talking about the scenarios when a big fight occurs with 1 team barely surviving, but they did win. That team deserve the win and the benefits of that win. Instead, some idiot thought it would be a good idea to let the enemy team have the ability to just revive and completely negate the fact that they just had their arse handed to them.


I can see now that there are 2 distinct camps on this topic. Neither will ever see eye to eye nor will one side convince the other.

Unfortunately since Riot pretty much ignore this game mode we will never get proper clarification on this topic, and as always will have to wait a year before any move is made one way or the other.
Until then I will have to take revive, not because I want to, but because I am forced to otherwise I will be severely hamstringing my team. Nobody can deny the fact that revive is mandatory at even a reasonable level of play.

Personally I would like to see all summoner spells disabled on DOM. They bring far too much power to the table for something that requires no skill, cannot be banned or disabled via items or in game options.


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Tortferngatr

Senior Member

12-31-2012

My personal suggestion for Revive:

-Remove it from Summoner Spell selection.
-Make a special Revive (maybe call it "Phoenix Rise") usable every 9 minutes, replacing Recall while dead.
-Speed boost remains. The health boost does not. Any further nerfs (such as reduced health ["Fledgling" debuff?] on revival) may be given as needed.

Now it doesn't prevent you from running other Summoner Spells for strategic value, while simultaneously solving the problem of low-elo players not taking it. It also preserves the fun value of Revive ("rising from the ashes to make a saving play").

That being said, there are some more map-intrinsic problems that might have an influence on Revive, so that's just me. (coughdeathtimerrubberbandingcough)


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konfetarius

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Jeebus. At this point, your argument essentially "summoner spells are bad because they have too much impact."

Why do you not consider them, their use, and the resource management that is their cooldowns to be as much part of the gameplay as, let's say, champion ultimates?


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bierfaust

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by konfetarius View Post
Jeebus. At this point, your argument essentially "summoner spells are bad because they have too much impact."

Why do you not consider them, their use, and the resource management that is their cooldowns to be as much part of the gameplay as, let's say, champion ultimates?
Because champions can be banned, counter-picked, and eliminated as a threat by building resistances/armor/health. How do you counter revive?

It is the only summoner spell, apart from clarity, that cannot be countered.

Yes I think summoner spells are too powerful they make or break games, especially DOM ( and especially where revive is concerned, it is far too powerful in DOM ). I would much prefer a game without them, but unfortunately DOTA 2's UI is complete garbage so I don't have much choice as far as MOBA games go.

Fortunately I find myself playing less and less of this game each day. At the very least I can enjoy 3's with my friends, ( 2 other people I can actually rely on ) but blind pick in that is even worse than blind pick DOM.


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konfetarius

Senior Member

12-31-2012

I don't see the problem with having a game element you need to use to win as long as everyone has equal access to it. That's like complaining that you must get damage items to win the game. If the element undeniably made the game worse for its existence, sure, it needs to be fixed. So far, there is no compelling argument that revive is such a thing for Dominion, though.


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SuperQuackDuck

Senior Member

12-31-2012

I suggest that riot implement a system whereby revives on dom cannot be used at all until one team has claimed windmill.


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MyDeadGrandma

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by konfetarius View Post
Jeebus. At this point, your argument essentially "summoner spells are bad because they have too much impact."

Why do you not consider them, their use, and the resource management that is their cooldowns to be as much part of the gameplay as, let's say, champion ultimates?
Flash not being available till level 6 and not reaching its full potential until 16 would be reason enough for me to go back to summoners rift.
Quote:
I don't see the problem with having a game element you need to use to win as long as everyone has equal access to it.
Telephone Nome, get him to put penetration back in the aura. It is global after all, so everyone had access to it.


On a less snarky note, the diminishing returns on acing a team that's already losing point wise needs to be looked at. I feel this has a greater impact on punishing success than revive does. It would force the losers to think a little more wisely about when to use revive, as opposed to not needing to use it at all because they can recap mid/bot and be on their way to the windmill in the time it takes the winners to recall.


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Bma

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Senior Member

12-31-2012

To expand a little on what I said before, not rly sure I like how in initial windmill fights, 4 long drawn out deaths on one team can cap windmill over the other team that barely killed 4 without dying because of revive.

One would presumably believe the team to have killed 4x without dying to be a stronger team, yet the actual correct play would have been for one of those players to have suicided deliberately to get full hp on Revive. This type of thing is where revive can create situations that are counter intuitive as opposed to being unskilful.


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Das Strychnine

Senior Member

01-01-2013

The only thing I don't like about revive is how everyone is pretty much forced to use it, which means you only have 1 summoner available to play with, which will usually be Garrison, Exhaust or Ignite, this provides really little variety but I guess the same thing can be said about SR where everyone usually runs Flash /Exhaust or Flash/Ignite.


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