What Makes a Jungler a Jungler to Riot?

First Riot Post
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Bogieman

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
In Darius' case, I regret including an attack speed slow on Crippling Strike and making Hemorhage damage type magic. I did these things as last minute reactions to concerns from our live designers about his viability (at the time, Draven would just 1v1 him even in the rare case that Darius could get to Draven and Darius was considered hard countered by cloth+5pot starts). I should have just designed him in a way that was logical and let our player base figure out where and how to best use him.
Would you call Darius a design failure? Most people can agree he's unfun to play with both on the enemy side as well as on your side. And as you've said you regret implementing certain things in his kit.


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Metalgolem

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogieman View Post
Would you call Darius a design failure? Most people can agree he's unfun to play with both on the enemy side as well as on your side. And as you've said you regret implementing certain things in his kit.
I remember when this post was about jungle champs x_x


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Ira et Tolio

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Senior Member

12-30-2012

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Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Allow me to clarify: I favor champion designs that can function well in multiple roles. Once a champion's abilities are set, it is very hard for the live team to tweak the numbers or re-design abilities so that the champion can work in different roles. Take Janna: With a 0.8 AP ratio shield and the ability to insta-clear waves from 1700 range, it's difficult to make her a compelling addition to the League as a solo laner.
You forgot that Taric as a tanky AP top actually works. Like...REALLY well.


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coffee addict

Senior Member

12-30-2012

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Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
And yet both are completely viable in lane. The OP seems to be suggesting that a champion "for the jungle" is one that cannot be played effectively outside of the jungle.
lol, lane nocturne

almost as good as lane shaco

oh, you're the one that designed DARIUS... no wonder you make no sense


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

12-30-2012

@CertainlyT-

One thing that's been confusing me lately, is why you think "being able to do more than one thing (proficiently)" is a mark of a well-designed champion? Sure, it's a good thing, when a champion is designed around being flexible (Elise, Nidalee, and old Vladimir, for example), but I don't see why it's something you'd push for with every champion you design. Now, I'm not talking about certain mages or bruisers etc. being able to jungle, or certain junglers being able to lane just as proficiently, if not moreso *coughDianacough*--but rather, avoiding elements in designs wherein a champion would be limited to only one build/lane/role that compliments their kit and theming quite nicely. for example, Skarner's E was designed around forcing him into the flexibility of being able to lane, although he will always be better placed as a jungler because he has more to give to his team as a jungler (he can clear fast enough to counterjungle, and his ganks are incredible--keeping that ult pent up in top lane is simply criminal, since at that point it would only ever help himself and even then, not as much as it would help if he were using it to help another top lane that had top-lane level farm and experience). And you know what? Skarner's E is useless. There is never a reason to place a point into his heal instead of Crystal Slash or his Exoskeleton, because both of those help him out more than sustain he doesn't need (since he can clear fast enough for health to not be a problem and Exoskeleton helps fend off a lot of jungle minion damage). The existence of his E disjoints his kit that much, because somehow in that design, making him arbitrarily flexible took priority over giving him a job and allowing him to do it in an extremely cool, extremely characteristic way (as Skarner, you ARE the scorpion--lashing out of your jungle to drag enemies into their doom, and being very territorial and skittery all throughout).

Is deliberate flexibility in kits a good thing? Yes, when that's the focus of their kit. Like, if Kha'Zix's misplaced Evolution gimmick were properly placed on Viktor with a different set of abilities, allowing him to potentially fill in any lane and multiple roles, for example. It's a great and beautiful thing when champions are designed around being flexible, but when you're afraid to give a champion a defined role, playstyle, and build, that's when you're forgetting that there are over 100 champions in this game. You shouldn't be afraid of Skarner players not being able to be optimal at top-lane, because if they wanted to do that, they'd pick a champion that was all about top-lane. You don't have to worry about Tristana players wanting to build AP and still work well despite their kit not being dedicated to it (90% bonus aspd and ridiculously long range go to waste, and that falls under the category of "want not"), because if they wanted to build AP and do Sick Damages with their abilities, they could play one of many of the mages you've provided them with. And it's not even like this kind of false depth (through unnecessary, forced flexibility) enriches the champions themselves--it's not like you can easily switch between AP and AD as Tristana, you've just given players options that they don't really need.

It's almost like the mindset behind designing champions is "make it as widely available to as many players as possible" instead of "have something for everybody." Does that mean every champion should be limited to one role and one stat-centric build? Of course not (provided these roles are readable on the champion--like with Skarner being able to go both bruiser and full-tank--and likewise with stats, such as if Kog had a kit that allowed him to be flexible with AP and AD instead of being relegated to one or the other *and also didn't make him explode upon death because what*). But I think it's a bit silly to measure champion worth based on how many *different* things they can do at *different* times, instead of giving them a job they can do in a cool and characteristic way (like how Graves and Vayne are different flavors of carry and can really only build for one role/damage type). Like I said, this is a game where you could potentially have over 109 ways to play! It's not like variety or options are things that players won't have access to unless you shoehorn it in, they're going to find what they like and they're gonna play it. (Also, shouldn't champions be designed around how fun and engaging they'd be to play even without items? LoL isn't a void, but making it so that champions are satisfying even without the flavoring of items could only make them more enjoyable in the context of actual games, and that seems like it would yield more positive and awesome results than simply aiming to allow people to do X with Y champion even though they could do it better with Z because that's what Z is all about.)

Also, sorry for being so aggressive with my only vaguely educated and experience-less design philosophies--your assertions just really don't make sense to me and if you could explain them to me that would be grand.


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MasterEvilAce

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
As to Riven being a champion that is only viable top lane and no where else, I would just say that I strongly disagree with these sort of design goals. Creating champions for specific reasons leads to a lot of stuff we later regret -- in Riven's case, her inordinately high base HP regen and her incredibly low ultimate cooldown.

In Darius' case, I regret including an attack speed slow on Crippling Strike and making Hemorhage damage type magic. I did these things as last minute reactions to concerns from our live designers about his viability (at the time, Draven would just 1v1 him even in the rare case that Darius could get to Draven and Darius was considered hard countered by cloth+5pot starts). I should have just designed him in a way that was logical and let our player base figure out where and how to best use him.
You talk about Riven and Darius and regrets made in their design. My question is how come Riven is up on the PBE with changes to mechanics that you just specifically pointed out, and yet Darius has still been untouched?


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Sedna

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Senior Member

12-30-2012

I play Leona jungle, your argument is invalid.


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Vanra

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Hecarim, Nautilus, Sejuani, Shyvana all belie your statement.

As to making champions "for the jungle", I am not sure why a designer would even accept that as a goal. Champions that can function in multiple game roles are healthier champions, since more people can access them and explore their abilities in a variety of contexts.
Really? Have you tried jungling Nautilus or Sejuani lately?

Good luck with that.


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CertainlyT

Champion Designer

12-30-2012
12 of 20 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanra View Post
Really? Have you tried jungling Nautilus or Sejuani lately?

Good luck with that.

I have. They are very good.


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Vanra

Senior Member

12-30-2012

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Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
I have. They are very good.
Well when I tried it with Nautilus I couldn't even kill the blue buff at level 2, so clearly I must be doing something horribly wrong.