What Makes a Jungler a Jungler to Riot?

First Riot Post
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Warm Gun

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
And yet both are completely viable in lane. The OP seems to be suggesting that a champion "for the jungle" is one that cannot be played effectively outside of the jungle.
To be fair, Auto-Push nocturne can't be played in lane under almost any circumstance.

Having said that, I don't think the OP's comment has any validity.


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N1ghtmare Hunter

Junior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Two teams ran Nocturne mid this month at the OGN winter championships.
Owned the another party like a boss


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Undtoromeso

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apollinarius View Post
What makes a champion a jungler? The ability to benefit from the difference between jungle mechanics and lane mechanics. Some champions are horrible in lane but great in the jungle. Most champions are better in lane but can be jungled if you really want them on the team but there isn't a lane available. And some champions simply have mechanics that make clearing the jungle impossible.
This seems kind of how the current meta probably melted together. I remember a lot of times in S1 era there were level 1 kill sidelanes which transitioned to roamer and solo lane while another sidelane was solo + a jungler... Champs like Amumu really excelled at level 1-3 zone control in a lane, but lacked the sustain/durability to hold it up to farm forever. Roaming was cool.


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Darkwahn

Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
.

Wow, I'm really glad that you're taking the time to do detailed posts like these. Makes me understand you more as a designer.


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Metalgolem

Senior Member

12-31-2012

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Originally Posted by Darkwahn View Post
Wow, I'm really glad that you're taking the time to do detailed posts like these. Makes me understand you more as a designer.
Well what you expect? They work for Riot, best gaming company NA


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CooLTanG

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Master Recruiter

12-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
I will get rid of them. It takes time to test changes and to assess what needs to be done to compensate for them. They also weren't possible prior to Season 3 when armor was ridiculously undercosted relative to its power.

It's worth noting that we have a lot of lane bullies, of which Darius is only one. If you straight nerf Darius, then people who want the lane bully experience will just play Garen or Renekton, champions that *actually* counters all other melee champions (Darius does not... a lot of melee champions have decent matchups against him).
As a Tryndamere melee player, I'd rather face Renekton, or Garen than a Darius. I commit to fighting either of those, Garen can have his damage reduced by mocking, as well as Renekton. They both don't get massive magic damage either, and both can be countered well with armor. Darius just bleeds magic damage, and if you commit to fighting him you get atk speed slowed. If you try to run even with gap closer, CONE pulled back, so you can't even dodge it right or left, what kind of skill do u need to use that.....

Darius Effects:
Passive Move Speed Buff
Magic Damage that scales with AD
Armor Pen Passive on a skill
AOE Cone pull which is impossible to dodge right or left.
AOE Blade that does 150% more damage based on edge of aoe (hard to run up to last hit)
40% Attack Speed Slow & 40% Move Speed Slow (which cooldown gets reduced based on bleed stacks)
True Damage Ult that scales with AD (refreshes on kill)


Garen Effects:
Move Speed & Slow remover
Silence
AD Spin Damage
Magic Damage Ult based on missing health
30% Damage reduction & 20% armor/mr increase (defensive ability deals no damage)


Renekton Effect:
AOE blade effect similar to Darius
Stun
Small Gap Closer
Armor % Reduction if Gap closer goes through targets
+HP ult (counterable by ignite)
Magic Damage AOE Ult (which scales by AP)


Comparison between Renekton & Darius:
- Cull the Meek & Decimate (blade aoe atks)
- Darius: 70 / 105 / 140 / 175 / 210 (+ 70% Bonus AD)
- Darius: Blade Tip: 105 / 157.5 / 210 / 262.5 / 315 (+ 105% Bonus AD)
- Darius Cooldown: 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 / 5 sec
- Renekton: 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 / 180 (+ 80% bonus AD)
- Renekton: Empowered: 90 / 135 / 180 / 225 / 270 (+ 120% bonus AD)
- Renekton Cooldown: 8sec always
Bonus Effects:
- Renekton Healing 5% damage dealt which is capped off at: 50 / 75 / 100 / 125 / 150
- Renekton Empowered Healing is capped off at: 150 / 225 / 300 / 375 / 450
- Darius 12 / 15 / 18 / 21 / 24 / 27 / 30 / 33 / 36 (+ 30% Bonus AD) magic damage over 5 seconds, stacking up to 5 times
- Darius 5% movement speed for each bleeding enemy champion

Armor Penetration & Reduction
- Darius 25% Armor Pen Passive on the cone grab skill, Apprehend
- Renekton 35% Armor Reduction based on if he hits someone with his Slice&Dice the 2nd time

Magic Damage PASSIVE vs ULT (120sec cd)
- Darius Passive basic attacks and damaging abilities bleed for 12 / 15 / 18 / 21 / 24 / 27 / 30 / 33 / 36 (+ 30% Bonus AD) magic damage over 5 seconds
- Darius 5 Stack Magic damage not counting bonus AD (60, 75, 90, 105, 120, 135, 150, 165, 180)
- Renekton Ult Magic damage per second to nearby enemies for 15 seconds 40 / 70 / 100 (+ 10% AP)
- Renekton Maximum damage: 600 / 1050 / 1500 (+ 150% AP) (which is the 15 seconds)


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thekillertree

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Senior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Potentially. It's unclear what should be done to Darius. He's balanced, has clear strengths and weaknesses, and is much less matchup dependent than the average forum post would have you believe. Even if we remedied some of the specific complaints about him now, any bruiser that does not lean heavily on raw statistical bonuses to be successful will often generate a lot of frustration from their opponents. Raw stats tend to play out almost unnoticeably over time whereas abilities manifest their power in dramatically noticeable moments. Take Jarvan's Demacian Standard -- it's primary power is in the armor/AS boost it gives, but a good number of players don't even notice it exists.

I would say that, in the case of changing Darius' bleed damage to physical, be careful what you wish for, you might not like it.

Please hear me out on this. It is his mana cost of Q that I see as the real problem. Talon was first nerfed with his mana costs because it was basically free for him to harrass, and its a similar issue people mention with Diana. Yet both do LESS damage than Darius' Q. That doesnt even factor in the bleed and movement speed buff it gives him.


I truly feel that a slight mana increase would still allow him to bully, but it wouldn't be as ridiculous as it is right now where he never runs out of mana.


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Metalgolem

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by thekillertree View Post
Please hear me out on this. It is his mana cost of Q that I see as the real problem. Talon was first nerfed with his mana costs because it was basically free for him to harrass, and its a similar issue people mention with Diana. Yet both do LESS damage than Darius' Q. That doesnt even factor in the bleed and movement speed buff it gives him.


I truly feel that a slight mana increase would still allow him to bully, but it wouldn't be as ridiculous as it is right now where he never runs out of mana.
I can actually see that working


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3mptylord

Senior Member

12-31-2012

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Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
The issue of AP versus AD is about whether you will focus on magic or physical damage, not what space within the game you intend to occupy.

As to Riven being a champion that is only viable top lane and no where else, I would just say that I strongly disagree with these sort of design goals. Creating champions for specific reasons leads to a lot of stuff we later regret -- in Riven's case, her inordinately high base HP regen and her incredibly low ultimate cooldown.

In Darius' case, I regret including an attack speed slow on Crippling Strike and making Hemorhage damage type magic. I did these things as last minute reactions to concerns from our live designers about his viability (at the time, Draven would just 1v1 him even in the rare case that Darius could get to Draven and Darius was considered hard countered by cloth+5pot starts). I should have just designed him in a way that was logical and let our player base figure out where and how to best use him.
Please do NOT make it physical damage... Black Cleaver would be far too easy on him.

I think it would be fun to try having his passive only apply to abilities (maybe have attacks refresh the duration, but not apply any new stacks). Make Q apply 2 stacks with the blade; W will allow his next attack to apply a stack.


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The SHP

Senior Member

01-01-2013

Just wanted to say, since I've seen a few posts saying Leona can't jungle (and i know i'm gonna get flak for this):

Leona can jungle. It's actually pretty reasonable. I've been able to work out a 3:57 to lvl 4, solo, with about 450 health remaining upon hitting 4. The only time it's particularly 'slow' is at level 1... but then again, with a leash, you don't have to worry about that. After that, it's pretty smooth sailing, at a pretty good pace.


most of the details are posted at some point in this thread: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2955038