What Makes a Jungler a Jungler to Riot?

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Zerglinator

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
I remember when she came out people were like OMG LULU EZ OR KOG CAUSE AP RATIOS and then everyone realized 'wait why am i not maxing glitterlance'.
Hey, I ALWAYS take into consideration my AD Carry's AP Ratios when using Lulu.


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24SevenEU

Senior Member

12-31-2012

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Originally Posted by xX iRust View Post
What about shaco his a great jungler but his suppose to be an assassin but doesn't do that much damage compare to other assassins(which was stated in the spotlight that his an assassin), so the optimal build is to build him as a bruiser was he intended to be like this?
Shaco is an assasin when built AP not ad bruiser, just put a box down and you'll se if he does damage or not


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

12-31-2012

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Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
in that Naut is a tank/initiator and Lulu is a support/enabler no matter where they are played. Both champions can be played multiple builds and in multiple roles, but the kit defines what they do, not where they go.
I'm not sure what you mean with regard to Nautilus--

He has ostensibly no ability to be played outside of the jungle, and in almost all cases must build puretank.

While he may not have been designed specifically to be a jungler, he seemingly wasn't designed not to be a jungler. As in: laning considerations appear unmade.

Although I surmise all it would take is an AP ratio on his shield to enable reasonable laning and some alternate builds.


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Metalgolem

Senior Member

12-31-2012

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Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
I'm not sure what you mean with regard to Nautilus--

He has ostensibly no ability to be played outside of the jungle, and in almost all cases must build puretank.

While he may not have been designed specifically to be a jungler, he seemingly wasn't designed not to be a jungler. As in: laning considerations appear unmade.

Although I surmise all it would take is an AP ratio on his shield to enable reasonable laning and some alternate builds.
I have seen Naut go mid, and omg they are annoying durable and actually not as terrible as you would think


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Blaine Tog

Senior Member

12-31-2012

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Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
I would say that, in the case of changing Darius' bleed damage to physical, be careful what you wish for, you might not like it.
It would've been fine in S2, but in S3 would have absurd synergy with Black Cleaver. Darius hits you *once,* and suddenly you're at full armor shred stacks.


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Apollinarius

Senior Member

12-31-2012

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Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
I think something that makes a champion successful in the jungle is how much that champion values - and can thrive - being in Fog of War. In Rengar's development, we knew that he didn't have a competitive clear time, but he also didn't need it - his lane-ganking (with Thrill of the Hunt) or just basic sidelane ganks utilizing his passive along with Empowered Bola Strike made him incredibly strong there.

Kha'Zix, Elise, Diana, and Vi as well all had a significant number of jungle tests - even if we didn't expect that position to be their primary/popular roles, they are all champions that have strong dueling/cc and prefer to get the jump on the opponent.

Zed is a champion where i'm probably the most happy with how his jungling turned out - CertainlyT and i got to work very closely on Zed, and at the time he was a poor jungler at best. He was functioning as a solo laner just fine, mind you, but when he was only a laner (and balanced to be one) he was incredibly frustrating...on demand slow (at the time it wasn't tied to mimicked shadow slash) and potent ranged poke + super escape made laning against a Zed so frustrating some of us didn't even want to participate in playtests. However, opening him up to play in the jungle allowed us to not only drain some of the strengths of his laning, but also increase his mobility/trickiness across the board - the Zed player was casting W more often and jumping over jungle walls, and the opponents had specific windows of time they would be expecting him within the laning phase, which ended up just being more fun across the board.

Of the champions i've mentioned, i think their jungles are quite potent - but almost all of them have to skill/build/play differently to account for their new role. Elise forgoes a sustained damage build and prioritizes raw damage and approaches with rappel to hit-confirm a cocoon into instant-kill. Vi, Zed, and Rengar will all stalk opponents from shaco-esque angles of approach.

tl;dr IMO, the more a champion can make use of burst damage/mobility from the jungle, the more potent that champion can be played there, whereas heroes like Garen/Darius who favor accruing advantage over time and attrition-based combat don't get to exercise the full extent of their strengths. I believe junglers are less 'Can this person jungle?' and more 'Why do you want to jungle them?'
I think this really hit the nail on the head.

Some champions are jungled because you want them in the game for late game team synergy but they can't lane very well. The jungle is a way for them to get levels and farm in relative safety. Some champions are jungled because they have such fast movement and clear times that they get more farm and xp in the jungle than in lane. Some champions are jungled because they are very good at preventing the enemy jungler from getting farm, even though S3 has made counterjungling much harder because the good camps - wolves and golems - are too deep in enemy territory to be stolen safely. Finally, some champions are jungled because they can gank very well and help laners win against their opponents.

Most jungle champions bring a combination of those factors to the table - fast clears, good ganks, late game control/damage, but sometimes a champion does only one of those, but does it incredibly well.

What makes a champion a jungler? The ability to benefit from the difference between jungle mechanics and lane mechanics. Some champions are horrible in lane but great in the jungle. Most champions are better in lane but can be jungled if you really want them on the team but there isn't a lane available. And some champions simply have mechanics that make clearing the jungle impossible. In S3, Leona is a good example of this. I think Alistar was supposed to be as well, but I think his jungling in S3 is actually much stronger than late S2. I look forward to the buffs to his movement speed and W range so that I can stomp with him again.


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Just Red Bull

Junior Member

12-31-2012

Wouldn't removing Darius's attack speed slow on the w significantly lower his trade potential? i mean what did make him at his scariest point was when you got into melee range because the dot the slows and ofc the DUNK! but then if you took out the attack speed slow if would be significantly less frightening to get in range in him because now if you really aren't punished for doing so all you get is really the "q" and his dots and his ult if he can manage to get you low enough. Trading would be much harder for the Darius player now.


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LuminesDragon

Senior Member

12-31-2012

It seems to me like riot still really needs to work on making champs that can work well in the jungle. Every champ they've made this year has either fizzled out or just gone to another lane. I just don't think making champs that can lane or jungle is really a good idea at all. Pure junglers always seem to work way better. Like why would you ever play Zed over nocturn, when zed needs so many items to do anything, and nocturn is fine with a riggles, and boots for most of the game. Good jungler's aren't item dependent that's why it's bad to try and mix them up with champs that lane who really need 2-3 full items 20 min in to be effective, all that really happens when these champs try and jungle is they they never really reach their full potential. The way things are going the jungler is looking more like another support, not someone who can potential carry a game, utill the jungle becomes worth more i really don't see much changing for s2.


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Poundman

Senior Member

12-31-2012

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Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Hecarim, Nautilus, Sejuani, Shyvana all belie your statement.

As to making champions "for the jungle", I am not sure why a designer would even accept that as a goal. Champions that can function in multiple game roles are healthier champions, since more people can access them and explore their abilities in a variety of contexts.
Introducing Leona!

(play her bot support or get reported)


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N1ghtmare Hunter

Junior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Hecarim, Nautilus, Sejuani, Shyvana all belie your statement.

As to making champions "for the jungle", I am not sure why a designer would even accept that as a goal. Champions that can function in multiple game roles are healthier champions, since more people can access them and explore their abilities in a variety of contexts.
You are absolutely right but i hate you case you got Darius pic XD