What Makes a Jungler a Jungler to Riot?

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Fat Kid In RL

Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theycmetrollin7 View Post
Lee sin ruins the experience for me wherever he is.
If he is mid he destroys mid.
If he is top he destroys top.
If he is jungle, he is one of the only champions in the game that can outmobilize wards without friendly or enemy targets (by placing a ward). Oh you warded the river? Cool I will just drop a ward in the respective pit and jump over the wall into your jungle.

You need literally 5 wards to protect your lane from a lee sin, and once he hits you with Q, you are pretty much dead because of his kit. It is a straight line skill shot with insane range and an auto gap closer lockon if it is hit so you can't even flash from him.

Somehow that is okay though, but a lulu or soraka mid makes people cry.

this is why we ban lee singer.


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Vladeous

Senior Member

12-30-2012

What about diana rengar and khazix who were branded as junglers but turned out to be 100x better in lane?


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Undtoromeso

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladeous View Post
What about diana rengar and khazix who were branded as junglers but turned out to be 100x better in lane?
One of them reds said specifically, jungler tags exist in specific cases such as Khaz and Rengo in that they can specifically exploit the fog of war to greater advantage than many other alternatives.

EDIT: Just to be specifically clear, overview tags are a comment on the champion's kit, not the meta. Or, for that matter, the hard-coded non-meta jungle monsters and effects thereof.


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Cyraknoss

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by lagNZ View Post
I just tried a custom game with him.
I got both buffs and all camps(wraiths twice) and left the jungle with 1/3 of my health left, i had to recall but that was the aim of the new jungle, risk ganking on low health after first clear or recall, clear again and then gank.
with what? I tried 4 different rune/mastery setups, both machete and armor starts, starting red or blue, and different skill orders not once was I high enough health to get the 2nd buff camp.


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LimitlessChaos

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
I will get rid of them. It takes time to test changes and to assess what needs to be done to compensate for them. They also weren't possible prior to Season 3 when armor was ridiculously undercosted relative to its power.

It's worth noting that we have a lot of lane bullies, of which Darius is only one. If you straight nerf Darius, then people who want the lane bully experience will just play Garen or Renekton, champions that *actually* counters all other melee champions (Darius does not... a lot of melee champions have decent matchups against him).
I hope for the sake of your own champion that by "them" in that statement, you're not saying you'll be removing every single thing that the poster you're quoting said to remove; if you do, you might as well gut Darius from the roster because the only fixes you could provide to compensate for removing that much from him would just make him as "OP" as he was...which he isn't.

Don't obliterate Darius (which...isn't that Live's job, not yours?) because people STILL cry about fighting him. He falls on his face and loses just as much as he wins and he's by no means "frustrating" to play against...not any more than plenty of other champions in the damn game.

I hope Riot is learning their lesson...seeing how your live team jumped the gun and nerfed the bejesus out of Diana and Rengar....only to admit to doing just that and now we're seeing reversions in an upcoming patch.


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bLues

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Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Hecarim, Nautilus, Sejuani, Shyvana all belie your statement.

As to making champions "for the jungle", I am not sure why a designer would even accept that as a goal. Champions that can function in multiple game roles are healthier champions, since more people can access them and explore their abilities in a variety of contexts.
This is blatantly wrong and actually contradicts a lot of what other Rioter's say.


There is a reason AP Lulu was nerfed. AP Janna.
Oh wait, this is just your hate of support characters. Carry on.


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Metalgolem

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
I think something that makes a champion successful in the jungle is how much that champion values - and can thrive - being in Fog of War. In Rengar's development, we knew that he didn't have a competitive clear time, but he also didn't need it - his lane-ganking (with Thrill of the Hunt) or just basic sidelane ganks utilizing his passive along with Empowered Bola Strike made him incredibly strong there.

Kha'Zix, Elise, Diana, and Vi as well all had a significant number of jungle tests - even if we didn't expect that position to be their primary/popular roles, they are all champions that have strong dueling/cc and prefer to get the jump on the opponent.

Zed is a champion where i'm probably the most happy with how his jungling turned out - CertainlyT and i got to work very closely on Zed, and at the time he was a poor jungler at best. He was functioning as a solo laner just fine, mind you, but when he was only a laner (and balanced to be one) he was incredibly frustrating...on demand slow (at the time it wasn't tied to mimicked shadow slash) and potent ranged poke + super escape made laning against a Zed so frustrating some of us didn't even want to participate in playtests. However, opening him up to play in the jungle allowed us to not only drain some of the strengths of his laning, but also increase his mobility/trickiness across the board - the Zed player was casting W more often and jumping over jungle walls, and the opponents had specific windows of time they would be expecting him within the laning phase, which ended up just being more fun across the board.

Of the champions i've mentioned, i think their jungles are quite potent - but almost all of them have to skill/build/play differently to account for their new role. Elise forgoes a sustained damage build and prioritizes raw damage and approaches with rappel to hit-confirm a cocoon into instant-kill. Vi, Zed, and Rengar will all stalk opponents from shaco-esque angles of approach.

tl;dr IMO, the more a champion can make use of burst damage/mobility from the jungle, the more potent that champion can be played there, whereas heroes like Garen/Darius who favor accruing advantage over time and attrition-based combat don't get to exercise the full extent of their strengths. I believe junglers are less 'Can this person jungle?' and more 'Why do you want to jungle them?'
Wow, this is the FIRST clear answer I got all day :P But one thing still remains unanswered, why have all the jungling champs been more fitted to play in top lane than in the jungle? Is there any primarily jungle champions in development currently? Not expecting any big spoilers mind you :P


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AK47WOLF

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blues View Post
This is blatantly wrong and actually contradicts a lot of what other Rioter's say.


There is a reason AP Lulu was nerfed. AP Janna.
Oh wait, this is just your hate of support characters. Carry on.
Stop mixing up Reds. Morello hates support and has systematically gutted it.


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A Rabid Teemo

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
The issue of AP versus AD is about whether you will focus on magic or physical damage, not what space within the game you intend to occupy.

As to Riven being a champion that is only viable top lane and no where else, I would just say that I strongly disagree with these sort of design goals. Creating champions for specific reasons leads to a lot of stuff we later regret -- in Riven's case, her inordinately high base HP regen and her incredibly low ultimate cooldown.

In Darius' case, I regret including an attack speed slow on Crippling Strike and making Hemorhage damage type magic. I did these things as last minute reactions to concerns from our live designers about his viability (at the time, Draven would just 1v1 him even in the rare case that Darius could get to Draven and Darius was considered hard countered by cloth+5pot starts). I should have just designed him in a way that was logical and let our player base figure out where and how to best use him.
That doesn't make sense. You created Riven specifically for top lane and she's not really good at anything else. It seems like you accomplished your goal, so how can that make things problematic? What is problematic is when you create a champion like Rengar who was designed to jungle and proved to have too much sustain in lane.

If you're designing champions for a specific purpose, I don't see how you can encounter unforeseen problems. You should be able to predict those problems otherwise your design intent is failing.


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A Rabid Teemo

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
I will get rid of them. It takes time to test changes and to assess what needs to be done to compensate for them. They also weren't possible prior to Season 3 when armor was ridiculously undercosted relative to its power.

It's worth noting that we have a lot of lane bullies, of which Darius is only one. If you straight nerf Darius, then people who want the lane bully experience will just play Garen or Renekton, champions that *actually* counters all other melee champions (Darius does not... a lot of melee champions have decent matchups against him).
I see your Renekton and raise you Olaf, Xin, Udyr