What Makes a Jungler a Jungler to Riot?

First Riot Post
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AK47WOLF

Senior Member

12-30-2012

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Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
And yet both are completely viable in lane. The OP seems to be suggesting that a champion "for the jungle" is one that cannot be played effectively outside of the jungle.
In Warwick's case though, you guys have proven that "for the jungle" champions are in fact intended for the jungle. Case in point, you guys have done nothing but nerf Lanewick into the ground.


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Grange75

Senior Member

12-30-2012

I would Say Shaco is pretty much stuck to only jungle-ing....

any arguments there?


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NakedGranny

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Senior Member

12-30-2012

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Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Hecarim, Nautilus, Sejuani, Shyvana all belie your statement.

As to making champions "for the jungle", I am not sure why a designer would even accept that as a goal. Champions that can function in multiple game roles are healthier champions, since more people can access them and explore their abilities in a variety of contexts.
So... supports and AP bursters...?

I mean. Really. Isn't this an explicit admission that there are serious problems with those two champion classes?


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KevinDelMarr

Senior Member

12-30-2012

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Originally Posted by AK47WOLF View Post
In Warwick's case though, you guys have proven that "for the jungle" champions are in fact intended for the jungle. Case in point, you guys have done nothing but nerf Lanewick into the ground.
If Hungering Strike didn't have such a high mana cost he would be a lot better in-lane, though keeping his sustain in check is probably what Riot is trying to do. Reducing the base by 10, and lowering his health regen by 1 is a consideration I have, maybe decrease the heal by .5 % or something as well. Lanewick uses Hungering Strike for trades, but can only use it so often before he goes oom, though lvl 6 is an easy gank for him. Also your only escape is having an enemy Champ be below 50% health. Some slight adjustments could be made to make him a stronger laner (if he is weak afterall)


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Discpled

Senior Member

12-30-2012

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Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Potentially. It's unclear what should be done to Darius. He's balanced, has clear strengths and weaknesses, and is much less matchup dependent than the average forum post would have you believe. Even if we remedied some of the specific complaints about him now, any bruiser that does not lean heavily on raw statistical bonuses to be successful will often generate a lot of frustration from their opponents. Raw stats tend to play out almost unnoticeably over time whereas abilities manifest their power in dramatically noticeable moments. Take Jarvan's Demacian Standard -- it's primary power is in the armor/AS boost it gives, but a good number of players don't even notice it exists.

I would say that, in the case of changing Darius' bleed damage to physical, be careful what you wish for, you might not like it.
I can see what you're saying here. The point being that if his bleed is changed to Physical and perchance Darius armor% pen is left, that means what has changed is that his early game is that much more godly because he has built in Arpen as well as his late game. With his bleed being magical it is actually weaker late game in it's current condition and potentially weaker or just as strong in the early game as AD bleed.


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Galgus

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Senior Member

12-30-2012

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Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
I will get rid of them. It takes time to test changes and to assess what needs to be done to compensate for them. They also weren't possible prior to Season 3 when armor was ridiculously undercosted relative to its power.

It's worth noting that we have a lot of lane bullies, of which Darius is only one. If you straight nerf Darius, then people who want the lane bully experience will just play Garen or Renekton, champions that *actually* counters all other melee champions (Darius does not... a lot of melee champions have decent matchups against him).
Minor disagreement on the Garen point- I know from personal experience that a Turtle Stance/ Lifesteal rushing Udyr spirals out of Garen's control fast.

With a Vampiric Sceptor, he can stand in Judgement and heavily mitigate its damage, leaving Garen only the option of getting zoned.

I was the Garen when I found this out, and I was invested in early game damage runes.


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Sturmhard

Senior Member

12-30-2012

@certainlyt

what do you think about the state of udyr? ganking is excruciatingly painful and the creeps, man the creeps are like an anivia wall lately.........i consider him not viable anymore due to most other junglers doing so much more in terms of tankiness and utility.

are there any plans for changes except the tiny turtle buff on the PBE? i dont think its addressing his problems.


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CertainlyT

Champion Designer

12-30-2012
17 of 20 Riot Posts

Yes, I know the live team is not happy with Udyr's state. Season 3 was not kind to him, and slow resistance has not proven as helpful as anticipated. We are fortunate to have access to two live deisgners who play Udy at a near professional level -- jungle and top respectively -- so I am very confident in their ability to put him in a good spot. That being said, Udyr is hard to balance because he is *extremely* team dependent. Given the right opponents and the right teammates, he completely takes over the mid game. I believe the Nami champion spotlight shows a pure terror Udyr dominating a game on a team with the CC to support him and an enemy team lacking in lock down.

As to a bunch of posts above -- keep in mind that my position is not that every champion needs to have extreme flexibility in the role they play, only that making inflexibility a goal is.... bad.


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TehKunai

Senior Member

12-30-2012

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Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
As to a bunch of posts above -- keep in mind that my position is not that every champion needs to have extreme flexibility in the role they play, only that making inflexibility a goal is.... bad.
To that point, I'd like to point out that in removing Heart of Gold, the balance team did exactly that; make inflexibility the end result. That completely removed some potential junglers from regular use at all levels of play, and severely weakened others.


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Vulking

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Senior Member

12-30-2012

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Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Yes, I know the live team is not happy with Udyr's state. Season 3 was not kind to him, and slow resistance has not proven as helpful as anticipated. We are fortunate to have access to two live deisgners who play Udy at a near professional level -- jungle and top respectively -- so I am very confident in their ability to put him in a good spot. That being said, Udyr is hard to balance because he is *extremely* team dependent. Given the right opponents and the right teammates, he completely takes over the mid game. I believe the Nami champion spotlight shows a pure terror Udyr dominating a game on a team with the CC to support him and an enemy team lacking in lock down.

As to a bunch of posts above -- keep in mind that my position is not that every champion needs to have extreme flexibility in the role they play, only that making inflexibility a goal is.... bad.
But, being a mage that can support or a support that can nuke is not EXTREME, do not AP bursters have utility spells? do not Supports have offensive spells? all that change thematically is the strength focus of said abilities, but position wise there should be no issue to have a support mid or a Mage support, if they have the tools they should be allowed to do the other class role at a sub optimal level since they are trading off their main strength changing roles, however Riot constantly nerf support so they cant mid or take other positions (most of the time drastically).

PS: Still mad that you think that Renekton need nerfs because he is strong in lane, he may need a redistribution in power but not plain nerfs, he has 0 relevance late game unlike Darius who has a strong lane with a strong late game (and even so I think Darius is fine and not OP)