here goes nothin

12
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OhBoyItsaMegaman

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Sorry, I do not have sympathy for someone who claims that they tried to adjust their behavior but failed. This isn't like when you accidentally blurt out an OH F*** in front of your sweet old great-grandmother. You're typing these things into the chat. You have to know that that is not accidental, involuntary, or somehow out of your control. Claiming that you can't not act that way when provoked removes any kind of credibility you would otherwise have.

When you say that the Tribunal isn't working, I think what you really mean is that the Tribunal is turning League into something you really don't want it to be. It is successfully weeding out people with your personality type, and it is becoming a better place for the rest of us to have fun.


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waferjuice

Senior Member

12-30-2012

TLDR but..

"""Let me tell you a little bit about myself. I'm 22, deliver Chinese food while going to college, am in a VERY healthy 1+ year relationship, have played LoL for probably 2 years now as my first moba style game, have vast gaming experience, have never gotten into trouble with the police, have made 2 enemies in my lifetime, which were a set of best friends and the 1 guy didn't like me because his sister was crushing on me (so it is understandable in my personal opinion), and consider myself a very easy going, mellow, soft-spoken individual. People have told me on multiple occasions that I have a very peaceful and easy going demeanor. I have also been permanently banned from league of legends on 3 accounts and am well on my way to 2 more.""

who gives a ****t whether you sell chinese food or sell jewels.


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Fudouri

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancerok View Post
Please, if you decide to read this, do so with an open mind.



The subject of the tribunal is about as sensitive as politics. There is a passionate rivalry between those who think that the tribunal is just and good, and those who think that the tribunal is harsh and bad.The truth is, and I think everyone can agree, the tribunals intent is a very good one. It really would be great if nobody raged and if nobody fed or disconnected or if nobody threatened to ban you for whiffing an easy skill shot on a guy standing still. But that is not the case. I personally side with the latter, that the tribunal is harsh, bad, unnecessary and harmful to the community (KEEP IN MIND "the tribunals intent is a very good one"). My opinion may be biased and I will get into that later on, but please continue reading. The overwhelming reasons that I feel this way is because I have been banned for 1, yet never banned from any other game except for botting in WoW which I understood completely and for 2, I am an empathetic, sympathetic, courteous and considerate person. I am not trying to say that you are not if you are for the tribunal so don't get offended. I just can understand JUST A LITTLE how someone MIGHT get mad playing this game.

The tribunal for me has done more harm than good. It has trained me to threaten to report and many times do so at the slightest most petty things that really hold no merit for a ban or suspension, mostly because I know that if I am getting reported for petty things, the only thing I could possibly do to get even with someone is to report them just the same.

This is the only game (that I have played in 12+ years) that bans for verbal abuse, or defines verbal abuse in such a strict way. It is admirable of riot to attempt to maybe revolutionize esports or online video games, but there are reasons why it is not working.

The problem is that league of legends is a pug game where you are HIGHLY reliant on your team. It is also a competitive game, and some people care more or are naturally more competitive than others.

All professional sports hold strict behavioral guidelines for obvious reasons.. The best example I can think of is to compare league of legends to golf. League of legends is the golf of internet video games because of the tribunal and summoners code. Strict behavioral guidelines are expected of the players (most of which are probably 12-26 year old males). Golf does this for many reasons, but it is a completely different game than league. You are not reliant on others, other people do not provoke you, other people do not coach you, other people do not disconnect, etc. etc.

In every game I have played, I choose my team, I play and don't rage, and I ignore anyone that annoys me or go to a different server etc. Examples:
1. Basketball (churchball/gym class/pug)- I play with who I want to play with and don't play if I don't want to
2. CS & CS:S (cal-i/cevo-p exp) - play with a team that I joined (in leagues), settle things like men among the team on ventrilo or find a new team.. there was no im going to try to get you banned from the game situations unless you were a hacker
3. WoW (5x gladiator exp) - choose my arena partners, find new 1s if things don't work out.

( the point of the exp references is just to show that I am competitive and to show the degree of competition in those games, NOT to brag or anything to that extent )

In all of these examples, I decide who I am playing with, and move on if I don't want to play with someone. When this is not the case, such as in league.. or in those games someone would harass me, the obvious decision at that point was to respond or ignore the person and continue playing.

So why is it such a crime in this community to get upset? ESPECIALLY WHEN PROVOKED.

Many of you are familiar that the opposite side of negative repercussions are positive ones. There are so many alternatives to mass banning people that are in a million different situations. I have suggested previously that there is a chat filter and a mute function. I'm sure that point has been brought up a thousand times on this forum. If you take the time to report someone for harassment, why would you not take the time to simply mute that person and never give it another moment of your time? Somehow in previous posts I always lose the reader and they just start yelling at me at how I'm a terrible person and deserved my ban, so let me remind you, I am not encouraging or justifying AT ALL "toxic" behavior or blatant harassment. I am saying this game is competitive and it is inevitable if you haven't noticed that by now. I know I have in thousands of games.

Let me tell you a little bit about myself. I'm 22, deliver Chinese food while going to college, am in a VERY healthy 1+ year relationship, have played LoL for probably 2 years now as my first moba style game, have vast gaming experience, have never gotten into trouble with the police, have made 2 enemies in my lifetime, which were a set of best friends and the 1 guy didn't like me because his sister was crushing on me (so it is understandable in my personal opinion), and consider myself a very easy going, mellow, soft-spoken individual. People have told me on multiple occasions that I have a very peaceful and easy going demeanor. I have also been permanently banned from league of legends on 3 accounts and am well on my way to 2 more.

The community however, has labelled me as toxic.. Can anyone conjure up anything more hideous?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am5Pq1SuddQ

I personally prefer passionate or competitive for reasons like most of the reports and bans that I have received are a result of provocation which I respond to VERY passionately. People don't do this in real life, and if they did I would respond the EXACT same way. I am not upset or dissatisfied with the nature of who I am as a person. My passion has helped me achieve many things and it constantly reminds me that I am alive. Some of you may not be passionate. Some of you may work 9-5 jobs and have a monotonous and boring life and not care at all the outcome of a game you invest a large portion of your free time to, but not me.. I care, and I am not ashamed.

Basically my goal in this post is to just make people understand that not everyone is the same, that there are alternatives such as positive repercussions or muting, and that there are unquantifiable variables and circumstances that each of us face each time we play this game like our personality, our mood, our team mates, etc. that make it difficult to say whether someone REALLY deserved a ban. I look at posts of people who get unjustly banned, and I see peoples responses of superiority and utter satisfaction from seeing others being punished, and I am eager for change.

I also want to mention that many people that I play with, who are less passionate or "toxic" than I (really "good" people) play this game in constant fear of being banned. Every game I play (I only play ranked) someone threatens to report or tries to get another player banned, if not multiple occasions per game.

Let's look at some specifics of how the tribunal might be "flawed".

I personally play shaco as my main champion. I have gotten 4 accounts platinum as shaco with 70-80% win. I would say in 80+% of my games as shaco my team will constantly complain, coach, or threaten me. These things are literally said to me almost every shaco game.

"NO NOT SHACO PLZ"
"i hate having shaco on my team they all feed"
"wow lvl 2 gank, who starts blue on shaco noob"
"shaco build tanky"
etc.

These things get really annoying to me when I get 3+ uncontested dragons (a 3000 gold advantage) gank multiple times, have low death scores, split push, ward, etc.

Generally I will respond with, "please stop". "please stop doing what you are doing, I am not coaching you, or telling you your picks suck please stop" then if they keep saying things to me, or get an attitude, I get really upset. it's like someone making noise when Tiger Woods is trying to make a put to win a lot of money. It's just not courteous or polite, and I get really offended when people that I am higher rated than (on other accounts) are down my throat or belittling me and overall just being disrespectful and rude for NO REASON AT ALL.

Obviously I do overreact (according to most of you), but there are grounds for my reactions at all. The point here is that I'm not you, I respond differently. If someone disrespects me on a game or is condescending to me, or puts my back against a wall, I respond differently.

Other things that I am sure you have experienced are a jungler that refuses to gank, a player that refuses to group, a tank that refuses to innitiate, an adc that refuses to auto attack (or so it seems - graves only buck-shotting and running), a support that doesn't ward or buy oracles, a feeder solo lane last pick who demanded top, and many other things that can be extremely frustrating to have on your team.
I will remind you a third time, I am not encouraging harassing such players; simply explaining why people get mad in league, so that maybe some of the tribunal judges that only play normal games and have an inflated sense of self entitlement and self worth can maybe look at cases with an understanding attitude rather than an offended, spiteful victim of "trolling" who is disgustingly eager for the opportunity to JUDGE another human.

I have a universal mindset towards humanity and this community. Although I DO NOT like but maybe a small percentage of you, I under no circumstance aside from afking/hacking/glitching would want any of you to have your accounts banned. THERE IS NO REASON TO WANT THAT FOR YOU. No matter what you say to me, I would never want your account banned EVER. I may not want to be your friend, or treat you as such, and I may disgust you, we may be complete opposites, but in my mind, that does not give me rights over your property. If someone cuts me off and gives me the finger when I'm delivering Chinese food, I might think that person is a complete moron, but I do not feel as if he should lose his car. Maybe he got dumped, or is borderline suicidal. Maybe I perceived the situation wrong AS A HUMAN BEING. Whatever the case, that scenario is over and done with within a short period of time, and has no significant impact on my life. In all of the games I have played, I have heard, seen, experienced vulgar, profane, harsh words, harassment to the highest degree and not once have I felt like disciplinary action needs to be taken on that person because I am in complete control of whether I want to continue interaction with that person or not.

Sorry that this is mostly a not very structured rant, I don't exactly have a way with words, but hopefully someone can understand what I'm saying and this won't be a flame fest for 10 pages.

I would also like to say that I know I "rage" I know I get mad, and I know I say things that most of you snuff your noses at, but that is not the point at all. The point is that the tribunal is not working as intended and is tremendously flawed as thousands of people have blatantly pointed out.
Good news, i actually read it all, despite it not including your reform cards.

1) You can choose to play LoL like you do those other sports (and based on your 3 permabans and expecting two more, I would suggest you do). Find or put together a group and start playing 5v5 or 3v3 ranked teams. Then you will have the same experience that you want to have in those other games. I doubt (though with no proof) there are very many reports for premade vs premade games.
2) Retaliation is not accepted. No different in real life. Eye for an eye went away as a cardinal rule with Hammurabi.
3) You have learned from Tribunal to threaten reports. I don't think that is what most people who don't keep being banned learn from their tribunal reports. I don't think you should be learning that from your Tribunal reports.
4) If you were being reported for playing Shaco, you would be pardoned. If they are belittling you playing shaco, you report them and know they will get what's due to them. You responding just gets you what is due to you.
5) If you want change, its simple, start using the tribunal more. Let your voice be heard. Be more lenient than the average tribunal user and you will make a difference.


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BillyTheAttorney

Senior Member

12-30-2012

I don't think this post is outrageous. I think the OP is just a young man with his own opinions and there's nothing wrong with having his own opinions and believing something. I think this post can encourage a healthy discussion. But I will take a slightly different viewpoint, not to be a contrarian, but because I think it needs to be highlighted.

I would however, like to focus my post on this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancerok View Post
Basically my goal in this post is to just make people understand that not everyone is the same, that there are alternatives such as positive repercussions or muting, and that there are unquantifiable variables and circumstances that each of us face each time we play this game like our personality, our mood, our team mates, etc. that make it difficult to say whether someone REALLY deserved a ban. I look at posts of people who get unjustly banned, and I see peoples responses of superiority and utter satisfaction from seeing others being punished, and I am eager for change.
You are absolutely right that people react differently to different things. I see it every. single. day. But, we all agree each day to set aside our "natural" reactions and desires to compromise for something we want. What do I mean? Okay. Lets try some analogies.

You mentioned that you work. In exchange for money you have agreed to limitations on your own natural reactions and freedoms. I bet you get scheduled to work on some days that you would not want to. You might complain, but in order to keep the job, you abide by the terms of the agreement of "going into work" at a "set time" because that is what you have to do to "get paid." You don't have to go to work on the days they tell you to. You do not have to show up on time - but what is the logical consequence? Maybe you have a favorite shirt or two that just aren't appropriate to wear for the job. Something they don't want you to wear - sure you can wear it, but again what happens? You might not agree with it, and you might hate it, but you know what the conseqences of the action are if you choose to do otherwise. "Someone is going to say something to you" and you might even lose the privilege to work.

Same thing with school. In order to get a grade for a class, you have a requirement: You do the work. You show up to a certain number of classes in order to not be labeled missing from the class. Yeah, the work sucks, but you know you're doing it because you want what the class gives you: Credit. You choose to then use that credit further down the road. But to get that credit you have to abide by the agreement: You pay for the hours, and you have to do the work and show up for the classes. You are limiting your own "natural reactions" (or sleep time) in order to accomplish something. You don't have to do that paper. You can blow it off and play League or hang with the girl, but what is the obvious conclusion?

So what does that have to do with anything?

Each time you play League, or start the client after a patch you click that "Agree" button. Do you know what you are agreeing to? You are agreeing that you abide by the terms Riot states where you have the priledge of playing their game. That means you abide by the terms set forth, including their set standards for community interactions.

You don't have to AGREE with their standards - but if you want to play, you have to agree to ABIDE by their standards. How do they enforce their standards? Through the Tribunal.

Thus, again, you are limiting what might be your "own natural reactions" to abide by the rules of the game. Some of the rules suck. Believe me, I live in a world where many rules suck and I hate them, but I have to abide by them in order to continue to do the things I do, because i like doing that thing more than I hate the restrictions.

Each time you log in to play, you're re-affirming your agreement that you are willing to play by the standards of the game that Riot has given you. You don't have to agree with the standards, but you DO have to agree that while you play the game you will abide by them, even in the face of other people breaking them. Does it suck? Yeah, is it imperfect? Yeah. Does that mean because of these things you can do it and not expect to be punished?

No.

I like your basketball analogy. I think that Basketball is by far the most analogous activity to League as a whole. 5 guys, individuals filling a role, but working together as a team to achieve victory. Now, I play basketball too. I go to the gym, and I have played pick-up ball with strangers. You've never done that? I have. Most of the time it's a blast. Just a bunch of guys there to shoot around but a game breaks out. Sometimes it's just a terrible experience with ball-hogs, trash-talking little men, and rebounds that feel more like a scramble in front of a hockey net.

In these situations, most of the times, light fouls are not called. You know, things we all do. But I had a situation once that reminded me of the Tribunal.

We had a play in a close game where someone went up for a layup, and the shot was blocked and there was a loud noise. When the guy shooting yelled "FOUL!" and the blocker yelled "ALL BALL!" So, how do you decide?

Everyone in the game had an opinion. Some people even on the defender's team thought it was a foul, and some people on the offense team thought it was a block (with a follow-through on the wrist). So what did we do? We polled a majority. We ended up with a consensus that what happened was a foul. The person who blocked the ball I'm sure believed it was a clean block. The person who got blocked believed it was a foul. We'll never know for sure, but the majority decided it was a foul, so we went on and continued the game. The person with the block probably felt wronged - but he didn't just leave in a huff calling us all trolls. He just accepted the ruling and played on.

That's how a community, even on a micro level, works to determine "what is, and what isn't" in the rules of the game.

Anyway, I hope this post helps you think of it in a different way.


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Fudouri

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Woo, good answer Billy.

In my world of pickup ball, people definitely dont' treat each other like in LoL. One can say Riot really just wants their game environment to be similar to your typical bball court.

In fact, I think that's how I am going to go into my cases from now on with. Would this stand on the bball court?


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Lancerok

Junior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyTheAttorney View Post
I don't think this post is outrageous. I think the OP is just a young man with his own opinions and there's nothing wrong with having his own opinions and believing something. I think this post can encourage a healthy discussion. But I will take a slightly different viewpoint, not to be a contrarian, but because I think it needs to be highlighted.

I would however, like to focus my post on this:



You are absolutely right that people react differently to different things. I see it every. single. day. But, we all agree each day to set aside our "natural" reactions and desires to compromise for something we want. What do I mean? Okay. Lets try some analogies.

You mentioned that you work. In exchange for money you have agreed to limitations on your own natural reactions and freedoms. I bet you get scheduled to work on some days that you would not want to. You might complain, but in order to keep the job, you abide by the terms of the agreement of "going into work" at a "set time" because that is what you have to do to "get paid." You don't have to go to work on the days they tell you to. You do not have to show up on time - but what is the logical consequence? Maybe you have a favorite shirt or two that just aren't appropriate to wear for the job. Something they don't want you to wear - sure you can wear it, but again what happens? You might not agree with it, and you might hate it, but you know what the conseqences of the action are if you choose to do otherwise. "Someone is going to say something to you" and you might even lose the privilege to work.

Same thing with school. In order to get a grade for a class, you have a requirement: You do the work. You show up to a certain number of classes in order to not be labeled missing from the class. Yeah, the work sucks, but you know you're doing it because you want what the class gives you: Credit. You choose to then use that credit further down the road. But to get that credit you have to abide by the agreement: You pay for the hours, and you have to do the work and show up for the classes. You are limiting your own "natural reactions" (or sleep time) in order to accomplish something. You don't have to do that paper. You can blow it off and play League or hang with the girl, but what is the obvious conclusion?

So what does that have to do with anything?

Each time you play League, or start the client after a patch you click that "Agree" button. Do you know what you are agreeing to? You are agreeing that you abide by the terms Riot states where you have the priledge of playing their game. That means you abide by the terms set forth, including their set standards for community interactions.

You don't have to AGREE with their standards - but if you want to play, you have to agree to ABIDE by their standards. How do they enforce their standards? Through the Tribunal.

Thus, again, you are limiting what might be your "own natural reactions" to abide by the rules of the game. Some of the rules suck. Believe me, I live in a world where many rules suck and I hate them, but I have to abide by them in order to continue to do the things I do, because i like doing that thing more than I hate the restrictions.

Each time you log in to play, you're re-affirming your agreement that you are willing to play by the standards of the game that Riot has given you. You don't have to agree with the standards, but you DO have to agree that while you play the game you will abide by them, even in the face of other people breaking them. Does it suck? Yeah, is it imperfect? Yeah. Does that mean because of these things you can do it and not expect to be punished?

No.

I like your basketball analogy. I think that Basketball is by far the most analogous activity to League as a whole. 5 guys, individuals filling a role, but working together as a team to achieve victory. Now, I play basketball too. I go to the gym, and I have played pick-up ball with strangers. You've never done that? I have. Most of the time it's a blast. Just a bunch of guys there to shoot around but a game breaks out. Sometimes it's just a terrible experience with ball-hogs, trash-talking little men, and rebounds that feel more like a scramble in front of a hockey net.

In these situations, most of the times, light fouls are not called. You know, things we all do. But I had a situation once that reminded me of the Tribunal.

We had a play in a close game where someone went up for a layup, and the shot was blocked and there was a loud noise. When the guy shooting yelled "FOUL!" and the blocker yelled "ALL BALL!" So, how do you decide?

Everyone in the game had an opinion. Some people even on the defender's team thought it was a foul, and some people on the offense team thought it was a block (with a follow-through on the wrist). So what did we do? We polled a majority. We ended up with a consensus that what happened was a foul. The person who blocked the ball I'm sure believed it was a clean block. The person who got blocked believed it was a foul. We'll never know for sure, but the majority decided it was a foul, so we went on and continued the game. The person with the block probably felt wronged - but he didn't just leave in a huff calling us all trolls. He just accepted the ruling and played on.

That's how a community, even on a micro level, works to determine "what is, and what isn't" in the rules of the game.

Anyway, I hope this post helps you think of it in a different way.
your post did help. it makes sense. thing is you dont play basketball for multiple hours with different people that are rude to you or belittling constantly. it wears on me. i know what i do isn't right i've explained that, i just know there's only so much **** i can handle from random people on the internet. like i said, i'm usually fine for a while, then it's too much and i stop caring. just got perma banned on my 4th acct today after spending $50 on riot points. no matter what any of you say to me, i'm not a jerk and i am not unsportsmanlike. i know this. i know myself. some people know me better than i know myself and know this about me. and if this game really thinks that i am an extreme detriment and labels me as toxic, 4 times is enough. mostly for moneys sake. still don't agree with these rules, i never will. if i could hit disagree and play with others that hit disagree i would be more than willing to do that but i can't. this is a great game made by a great company.

anyways, job well done tribunal, this is what it's all about. you have finally gotten rid of 1 more really horrific human being. I'm sure a lot of die hard tribunalists will spit all over me at this final goodbye, which will make missing this game and the community much more difficult. thanks for actually reading and understanding despite your opposing viewpoint billy.

goodbye and good luck /ff


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Arc Kalocal

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Its not a crime to get upset, its a crime to abuse people. I get upset all the time but I don't resort to cursing or slurs or anything of the sort. No one should be subjected to that for any reason. We've all had bad games and we've all been the subject of other people's ire before. It's when you take it too far is when you get banned. Learn to voice your frustration constructively and it won't be a problem.


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Fudouri

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancerok View Post
your post did help. it makes sense. thing is you dont play basketball for multiple hours with different people that are rude to you or belittling constantly. it wears on me. i know what i do isn't right i've explained that, i just know there's only so much **** i can handle from random people on the internet. like i said, i'm usually fine for a while, then it's too much and i stop caring. just got perma banned on my 4th acct today after spending $50 on riot points. no matter what any of you say to me, i'm not a jerk and i am not unsportsmanlike. i know this. i know myself. some people know me better than i know myself and know this about me. and if this game really thinks that i am an extreme detriment and labels me as toxic, 4 times is enough. mostly for moneys sake. still don't agree with these rules, i never will. if i could hit disagree and play with others that hit disagree i would be more than willing to do that but i can't. this is a great game made by a great company.

anyways, job well done tribunal, this is what it's all about. you have finally gotten rid of 1 more really horrific human being. I'm sure a lot of die hard tribunalists will spit all over me at this final goodbye, which will make missing this game and the community much more difficult. thanks for actually reading and understanding despite your opposing viewpoint billy.

goodbye and good luck /ff
You change things by doing the tribunal. That is the whole goal of the tribunal. That's why you have these "die hard tribunalist".

I love this pickup ball analogy. Currently, the LoL games are significnatly more toxic than your typical bball court. Riot would like it to be more like your typical bball court. The way they are trying to accomplish this task is via the Tribunal. You can help change this environment by doing the Tribunal.


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Gimpyloser

Senior Member

12-30-2012

That is a very intelligent and well written post. At any rate you are wrong, your mentality is wrong, and your analogy of lol to golf seems more like a straw man than an actual analogy. First of all this mentality of threatening to report as an act of vengence is absolutely toxic, so your argument that you are not a toxic player failed the moment you mentioned it. The idea that because there is a mute function , verbal abuse does not exist goes directly against the summoners code. The code addresses this exact argument.

I don't doubt that in the real world you are an intelligent, compassionate, and good man, but are you in the game as well? I've played this game since a couple months after release. I've played thousands of games, many ranked, many normal, many AI. I have never even been warned. Sure I've been threatened to be reported hundreds of times, no doubt been reported hundreds of time, but I simply ignore it. I am always respectful to the players, regardless of their performance. If last pick I try and fill the role, but also let my team know if it is my weakest. If I am having an awful game, like that 0/14 twitch game not to long ago, I apologize. They threaten to report and I don't spaz out, I just say ok, do what you have to, but I am doing my best. I am sorry, this Cait is just wrecking me, not sure what I can do.I don't view it as a sign of my weakness to apologize or admit when I am bested, I feel it is a strength and common courtesy for costing a team a win. I'm sorry man but the tribunal is fine, it's likely your behavior that needs to change. Treat people as you would in real life and you'll be fine.


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