Is Diana evil? More stories pls.

First Riot Post
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Lukiner

Senior Member

12-31-2012

so what we need::
a) more amazing lore with Leona and Diana (and maybe Nami)
b) more lore or themed skins for Leona and Diana.... like Celestial Avatar Diana and Leona, or the bikini Diana and Leona (<3) from Pool Party Ziggz splash art
c) more champs related with Diana (like probably hidden relation with Nami) and Leona (like Panth)


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Gofure

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Kinda depnds on who's side you're on.

Yes she did go and kill the elders, which is technically "evil", but those same people were gonna have her killed anyway for her "crime" of worshipping the moon.


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Hoisengerd

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmySquirrel View Post
Why either or? Tragic Antihero.
well since this isn't an actual story that we can analyze it's really hard to put in place, but going by hers and Nami's lore i can guess how a story would likely pan out; it would begin with her virtuous search only to result in misjudgment leading to her killing of the elders and later redemption through the saving of the Marai people which could lead to resolving issues with Leona and the Solari yet never finding real solace on her quest

i would have to class her as a tragic hero in this case, but the story could pan out in an entirely different way, she may never resolve her real issues, she may never seek redemption, she might continue to be the way she is...then i would have to class her as an antihero, but this wouldn't make her tragic, it would just make her a vigilante, like The Punisher, a person who thinks the ends justify the means and will do anything to accomplish what they deem just

i don't think you can be both at the same time, as an antihero doesn't have a moment of doubt in what he does (Batman, Punisher etc) while the tragic hero will question his judgement regularly (Othelo, Macbeth etc)

as of right now Diana is an antihero, but she could end up being a tragic hero, all depends on further lore...if we get any. i think Riot should do like the Magic franchise an authorize some novels or comics to further flesh out the stories


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Kyryck

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Good and evil are points of view. Moreover, an evil person can do good acts and a good person can do evil acts. Figuring out the interplay and creating stories based on the 'grey' areas that are intrinsic to any sensible discussion of morality is how you create compelling lore and interesting stories. Personally I believe that Diana is more amoral than good or evil. She had the potential to be good, but was forced down her road by the society she was part of. She seems to exist in a place now where she's more concerned about finding her own meaning in the world around her than worrying about what meanings others seek to place. She probably has major trust issues because of what happened to her, and likely realizes (like many warriors throughout time) that battle isn't 'glorious' or 'exciting'. It's brutal and quick and often she who strikes first and hardest lives (you can see this reflected in her character and her abilities). She's more concerned with living now, especially because she wishes to spread the message of the moon, and thus she is extremely brutal.

The LoL team has definitely created a base for themselves with their lorework right now, but it's a bit of an illusion, since the reason that some of the stuff out there is so compelling is because it is so very incomplete. There are so many options available for the lore team to choose from that many people can see things happening in the way they imagine. And, as we are all aware, the way we imagine things is usually the 'best' way for things to be (at least from that initial, non-thinking and emotional reaction that we all have when confronted with stories and such).

That is partly why there are so many excellent beginnings to series and trilogies and stores and games but so few exceptional middles and endings. Anybody reasonably competent can create a fairly open-ended story that will engage readers, even if it's poorly done. It simply has to have compelling possibilities that can come. The true mark of an excellent writer is one that can address those possibilities and make the ones chosen have a meaning that captures the essence of the 'promise of early-on'. It's a tremendously hard task and a primary reason why there aren't more good writers around.

I certainly hope that the writers in LoL manage to deliver some effective stories with the base that they've created. They have an incredible opportunity here to reach a wide variety of people. Hell, they could even go large and create things like a comic series (online would work) or even an animated cartoon series (perhaps posted right to youtube or some such). Indeed, something like that would be an excellent way to both hint at new champions and holidays and storylines, as well as flesh out things like the conflict between individual champions (Jarvan and Swain for instance).

I've got to say that I hope Riot puts more of an emphasis on its lore at some point soon. They've a golden window of opportunity to really engage a lot of people (and even grab new people if they do something like a cartoon series) and I hate to see them blowing it by dawdling away their time and failing to deliver on the promise that their lore contains.

Riot, if you don't have a separate lore/story department with at least some writers (whose job it is simply to write out the lore and storylines and characters and interactions and such) then you are really missing the boat. There are plenty of awesome and excellent professionals out there that would gladly create engaging stories for you, and many, many amateurs like myself that work for absolute peanuts simply because they love the intellectual property that they're dealing with. The guys in charge at Riot need to realize that they can grow by leaps and bounds in multiple entertainment areas if they simply devote some resources to the task.


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SlumlordThanatos

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoisengerd View Post
well since this isn't an actual story that we can analyze it's really hard to put in place, but going by hers and Nami's lore i can guess how a story would likely pan out; it would begin with her virtuous search only to result in misjudgment leading to her killing of the elders and later redemption through the saving of the Marai people which could lead to resolving issues with Leona and the Solari yet never finding real solace on her quest

i would have to class her as a tragic hero in this case, but the story could pan out in an entirely different way, she may never resolve her real issues, she may never seek redemption, she might continue to be the way she is...then i would have to class her as an antihero, but this wouldn't make her tragic, it would just make her a vigilante, like The Punisher, a person who thinks the ends justify the means and will do anything to accomplish what they deem just

i don't think you can be both at the same time, as an antihero doesn't have a moment of doubt in what he does (Batman, Punisher etc) while the tragic hero will question his judgement regularly (Othelo, Macbeth etc)

as of right now Diana is an antihero, but she could end up being a tragic hero, all depends on further lore...if we get any. i think Riot should do like the Magic franchise an authorize some novels or comics to further flesh out the stories
But (and this is a huge but) she imposes her will onto others, and kills them if they resist. She forcibily converts people into worshipping the moon, and she doesn't care who she harms or kills in her quest.

Antiheroes can still be (and almost universally are) undeniably evil. Alex Mercer from Prototype is one good example. Cole McGrath in inFamous can be played as an evil antihero, and Commander Shepard from Mass Effect much the same way.

If you ask me, an antihero is an evil (or a morally grey) individual performing heinous acts while working towards a noble end. All Diana wants is revenge. And while that is the primary motivation of the Punisher, he's going after organized crime. Diana is trying to tear down a religion. And while we could debate all day about the merits and downfalls of religion, none can deny it is (mostly) a force for good in our society.

That being said, redemption isn't out of the question for anyone. In yet another comparison to Darth Vader, he redeemed himself in the end. Maybe Diana will go down the same path and see the error in her ways? Because while revenge can be justified, shoving your religion down the throats of others and killing those who won't accept it is wrong.


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Dizzy Nanner

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Lots of fun stuff in here, some of it right along the lines of what we were thinking about when we developed Diana, some other things that have given me pause which I hadn't thought of before.

This is all open to individual interpretation, but myself, I do not see Diana as inherently evil. I see her as someone who was pure and whole, who has since collapsed in upon themselves to become the nihilist. To me, Diana is the absence, that's the compelling thing about her. It is not necessarily the strength of her convictions as it is her utter lack of consideration or regard since surrendering the better part of herself.

Leona is full, Diana is empty. That emptiness however is a force nonetheless. Leona is the fertile and the light, Diana is a desolate and the dark. She is the vacuum. A vacuum can still kill you. She is exerting a pull where Leona is forcing a push. In that they a complimentary. Diana is doubt, while Leona is faith, and trust. For Leona, Diana represents the direct insertion of that doubt into her world. Despite Diana becoming what Leona abhors, a taker of life, Leona isn't stupid. Being presented with a force given form that is directly conflicting with her beliefs she would have to question as to whether she has the whole story. Meanwhile, as Leona's unwavering faith falters, Diana has hit such a depth of nothingness that she is left with a completely perverted certainty. Leona's world is shattered, Diana's becomes concrete. Maybe Diana was willing to embrace shades of grey before, but not any more.

This isn't to say she doesn't believe in some sort of balance, or that the convictions she has inside her do not aim to restore some sort of equilibrium. But I believe that this is mainly a story about her, not the power which she has embraced. I feel that she has been so hurt, she has endured so much needless suffering, that she has gone to the very limit that any rational human can handle in the face of irrationality that there is nothing left for her to do but to collapse, to succumb and to let something otherworldly take her. She is the sane voice in a world of insanity, finally facing that inevitability, with that amount of blind objective reality being forced upon her, she has no choice but to give in finally.

As some have mentioned some of this is parallel to what Leona faced. Leona makes a choice, during the time she is most vulnerable a higher power steps in. Diana also makes a choice, but she relents, she despairs, becomes vulnerable and the higher power intercedes. Unlike Leona however, Diana is not really lifted up, she is dragged down. As the saying goes, the way out is through.

With Leona, she has to face death, face the abyss, but not fall in. She is saved before she parishes. Her conviction makes this so. Diana too must face death, look into the abyss, but must fall. That choice to let go is what facilitates her ascendancy. Reverse that now, to "present day" Leona must now face having to let go while Diana is now burning with conviction.

Also, when I speak of conviction, I do not necessarily mean that she is doctrinally driven. I feel that Diana has gone fully hyperbolic. What she feels is not rational. That's the kicker, she used to be so. She is the embodiment of what has literally been scorned or ignored and has something to say about it. This is her upswing coming from the depths. This is the pendulum swinging way too far. This is the overcompensation for her own personal saga and the disposition of the power inside her. She is the power personified, but that power is not looking for balance, not right at this moment.

There's a common thing we latched onto when developing her, and it was the Darth Vader arc. The way I look at it, Vader is not evil, he is also a nihilist. He is not driven by political power, or ideology, or military might. His argument basically boils down to; The power of the Dark Side is too great, resisting it is futile. If you are in my way, you will die by my hands and I will speak not a word of it aside from what a pitiful fool you are for getting in the way of something far beyond you.

That's my feeling at least, and that's how I feel about Diana and Leona actually. Anakin Skywalker had to succumb. He had to give in, and by doing so he was carried along by a torrent of which he saw no salvation from, nor any way out for someone standing on front of it. Even with his own son, his feeling is as I said, take my hand and stand with me, admit to the power, let it take hold of you, or die. It doesn't really matter in the end. Vader has no love lost for his son, someone he should love.

Diana feels similar I think. Despite any feelings that may be present, she has to give the same ultimatum to someone who she cares for, someone that stands in the way of a power which supersedes anything Diana might feel outside of its torrent.

Is Diana evil? She may be now. But she also might be nothing. I choose to see this story as not one of good and evil, but of full and empty. How full or how empty Leona or Diana are at the various points of their story mirror each other. Who will end up being full, and who will end up being left with nothing? What will full mean? Is there a balance that can be sought?

We'll just have to wait and see..

=)
So is the Diana/Leona arc like Antigone being foil to Ismene?


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W0bbaFett

Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
The Diana team has a lot of ideas. We're hoping to execute on something in the new year. Not quite sure how yet, but we'll see

Excellent news to hear, regardless of what is done. Work put into the lore and the backstory that shows up for us is always exciting, and whether it be a skin or new champion or whatever, I'm thrilled to hear you guys have more in store for us about this character story and arc.


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Dash Sendai

Senior Member

12-31-2012

IronStylus' has an unhealthy obession with pixels

Kind of scary


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xfreakyshot

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Hey IronStylus...can you show us a pic of Diana when she was a part of the Solari? kinda curious! (:


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Glyx

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Senior Member

01-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
The Diana team has a lot of ideas. We're hoping to execute on something in the new year. Not quite sure how yet, but we'll see
In my opinion, the leona/Diana Arc has enough depth just in themselves to become something of a movie or even a novel. Not too long ago, I thought up of a movie trailer idea. The movie itself would from Diana/Leona's childhoods to their final conflict. Given the lore isn't fully complete, I could very well see Daylight's End (sorry if the title is wrong) playing in the background as fade ins and fade outs of diana and Leona's life played out in the meanwhile. In all honesty, the idea of a LoL Movie always excited me, and i can almost imagine the trailer playing through my head.

Would love to see this someday =)