[Champion Concept] Xyra, the Survivor

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NobSaiboot

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nysta View Post
Changed a bit here and there. Would anyone mind up-voting my Champion Concept? It gives me the feeling I did a really bad job if it stays like that. I have to fight for comments and everything.

Is that normal?
I'll do more then upvote. :3


But before I can review I need help. I have no idea what ability is what. :/


I'll explain what I mean to the troll. What is ability Q W E R and passive? They aren't labeled as such.


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Dzanio

Senior Member

12-31-2012

The Picture on the ult helps quite a bit. I'll look the ability over again.


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Dzanio

Senior Member

12-31-2012

I had a detailed comment almost finished and hit the back button on my keyboard so much hatred of keyboard right now.

Gist of earlier comments:

Passive: seems fine now.

W: change flat pen to % pen and it won't be horribly OP (even w/ .1 scaling it will be high as is)

E: Like it better; I'd suggest implementing some sort of system so that you can either leap away from someone, or knock them away. Having both would be detrimental to you as a jungler trying to gank, if a good escape mechanism in lane/initiation mechanism for team fights.

Note: I hadn't thought about it before, but the passive damage bonus on your w is an on hit effect, and my earlier suggestion to bump up the AP ratio hadn't accounted for the extra damage. Otherwise seems pretty good.

Ult: I still have a lot of issues w/ this, but the picture helps a lot. I'd increase the speed at which the whip extends to 700 (when you consider the pull on your q, this doesn't need a buff, since any enemies are likely to already be nearby, however I've agreed to ignore the q since you think it's balanced), just so that you can actually get it out for an engage mechanism. I'd reduce the max range to ~1000 (approximately sight range). Had some other comments about damage, but I'll stick to these for now since they were long, drawn out, and predicated upon whether you chose to make the range nerf or not. Also a question: how quickly does the whip travel in an arc?


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Nysta

Senior Member

12-31-2012

They do in fact downvote^^ But oh well.. I'll label the abilities now (passive/q/w/e/r). Then I'll respond to Dzanio by editing this post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzanio View Post
I had a detailed comment almost finished and hit the back button on my keyboard so much hatred of keyboard right now.
That's harsh..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzanio View Post
Gist of earlier comments:

Passive: seems fine now.
Okay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzanio View Post
W: change flat pen to % pen and it won't be horribly OP (even w/ .1 scaling it will be high as is)
To be honest.. I don't know which world you live in, but in my world % reduction is stronger than flat reduction. At least that is from 100 armor on. That's not that high.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzanio View Post
E: Like it better; I'd suggest implementing some sort of system so that you can either leap away from someone, or knock them away. Having both would be detrimental to you as a jungler trying to gank, if a good escape mechanism in lane/initiation mechanism for team fights.
You can speed yourself up run behind him and kick him to slow him a little as well as jumping away from him putting you further ahead of him. You can run up to him and jump back to your lane, slowing him, making it easy to land the Q and pull him by that. You can do so many things.. I don't think that there's a need for the kick knocking the enemy away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzanio View Post
Note: I hadn't thought about it before, but the passive damage bonus on your w is an on hit effect, and my earlier suggestion to bump up the AP ratio hadn't accounted for the extra damage. Otherwise seems pretty good.
I don't quite know what this is referring to, but yes this adds an AP scaling to auto-hits and the Q's blade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzanio View Post
Ult: I still have a lot of issues w/ this, but the picture helps a lot. I'd increase the speed at which the whip extends to 700 (when you consider the pull on your q, this doesn't need a buff, since any enemies are likely to already be nearby, however I've agreed to ignore the q since you think it's balanced), just so that you can actually get it out for an engage mechanism. I'd reduce the max range to ~1000 (approximately sight range). Had some other comments about damage, but I'll stick to these for now since they were long, drawn out, and predicated upon whether you chose to make the range nerf or not. Also a question: how quickly does the whip travel in an arc?
Yea, the whip should extend faster, taking 3 seconds to reach the last target makes it very likely not to hit anything. Some champs might just outrun this ability. The pull of your Q will probably not have any enemies close to you. The range is much too low. It will most likely only hit when you use it in a combo. It is a rather bad initiation tool. When you hit someone with the e or ult though, you can probably pull them towards you.
I'd say the whip(chain) travels 0 units per second at first increasing by 100 units every 0.2 seconds up to a maximum of 1000 units or the speed reached till you hit your first enemy. Also it would then stop extending. I didn't clarify this before, sorry. Hitting a target very early on will not benefit you by any means. I'll increase the extending speed by 250 and reduce the max range by the same amount. Lowering the damage over time because of that.
You need not ignore the Q, you just need to make me get what you think is OP about it.
-edit-
I won't lower the damage on the ult further seeing that you can't attack or cast other spells while it's up. It might sound op overall, but you seem not to take the time it takes into account. You could deal much more damage by simply attacking your enemies. I'm very sure about that.
-edit-
Nerfed the slow.
-edit-
(about the ult)
Say the tank catches it early and makes it have close to no value by that. You can either give them a free initiate by pulling the tank in and making yourself able to attack something else after one second or you can keep it up and wait for it to run out, having your whole team be forced to run away.


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Dzanio

Senior Member

01-01-2013

Quote:
To be honest.. I don't know which world you live in, but in my world % reduction is stronger than flat reduction. At least that is from 100 armor on. That's not that high.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...nehuatl&page=3

Someone was talking about flat pen once; there's a wall of text (bottom of thread) convincing them that it's OP. If you need further convincing to to the Items Discussion forum, and read about the pre-nerf black cleaver and all the rage it entailed. There's a lot of info on this in the forums, but the basic idea (TLDR ahead) is that the damage amp from reducing the armor w/ % mitigation will never come even remotely close to the damage amp from reducing a squishy w/ flat pen. Also, the damage amp from reducing a squishy w/ flat pen can be greater than the damage increase from crit multiplication, even with an inf edge. Having stacking items/abilities which give flat pen is OP. Flat pen is OP.

Quote:
You can speed yourself up run behind him and kick him to slow him a little as well as jumping away from him putting you further ahead of him. You can run up to him and jump back to your lane, slowing him, making it easy to land the Q and pull him by that. You can do so many things.. I don't think that there's a need for the kick knocking the enemy away.
Ok, I'm fine w/ that. So it'll just be a jump now (+the MS from the initial activation)?

Quote:
I don't quite know what this is referring to, but yes this adds an AP scaling to auto-hits and the Q's blade.
It means that you get extra bonus damage from your w on this ability (because it applies on hit effects), and that when you take that bonus damage into account, the base scalings are too high.

Quote:
I'd say the whip(chain) travels 0 units per second at first increasing by 100 units every 0.2 seconds up to a maximum of 1000 units or the speed reached till you hit your first enemy. Also it would then stop extending.
I assume this is the radial speed? Might want to put it in degrees/sec since the "units traveled" will differ for each point along the chain.
Quote:
Hitting a target very early on will not benefit you by any means.
Well yes, why ult if you can just qq.
Quote:
I'll increase the extending speed by 250 and reduce the max range by the same amount.
Well it's a start.
Quote:
You need not ignore the Q, you just need to make me get what you think is OP about it.
It provides a wonderful zoning tool, similar cc to an ability with twice its cd, and which does no damage. Furthermore it provides wonderful synergy with the rest of your kit, completely screwing over anyone caught by it. You've argued that blitz's has longer range, and his pull does. But blitz's pull isn't line of affect (single target, not multi). Blitz's pull can be completely nullified by walking behind a minion. Blitzcrank's pull doesn't have a reset mechanism. Blitzcrank's pull has a longer cd, and costs more mana. No other pull can crit, and the only other one which applies any form of on hit effect is Darius's, which mearly applies a stack of his passive. You realize you have an AoE ability which applies on hit effects right? In season 3? Where the game was redesigned so that on-hit builds would be op, and the only limiting agent is that you'd have to buy extremely expensive items to make your attacks hit multiple targets. His pull has comparable base damage (it's single target, not multi, so yours should be significantly lower -- currently 300 from blitz, 275 from Xyra). And does not get both 1.0 bonus AD scaling and .6 AP scaling (effectively .8 from the passive on your w). It only has a 1.0 AP scaling, which is very high for an AP ability. The only other pull which has a persist mechanism so that it can be used for zoning/as a trap is Ori's Ultimate, Command: Shockwave. Need I go on?
-edit-
Quote:
I won't lower the damage on the ult further seeing that you can't attack or cast other spells while it's up. It might sound op overall, but you seem not to take the time it takes into account. You could deal much more damage by simply attacking your enemies. I'm very sure about that.
The point of the ult is to get them close enough to attack. You seem to miss this.
-edit-
Nerfed the slow.
-edit-
Quote:
(about the ult)
Say the tank catches it early and makes it have close to no value by that. You can either give them a free initiate by pulling the tank in and making yourself able to attack something else after one second or you can keep it up and wait for it to run out, having your whole team be forced to run away.
Depending upon your positioning that wouldn't be the end of the world. If there's a wall between you and the enemy team, then it's a wasted ult, but your team will whittle the tank down enough that he won't be effective in the next team fight. I also tend to assume that the person using the champ will be competent, and know to use wards/pick the starting location and direction of the ult appropriately. you don't balance to the worst case scenario -- there needs to be a worst case scenario where you **** yourself over or the ability is OP. You balance off the best case scenario, then you go back and balance off a typical scenario, and finally you think about the worst case scenario and how screwed (or not screwed) you'd be. Currently you wouldn't be screwed, which indicates the ability needs a nerf.


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Nysta

Senior Member

01-01-2013

The E: It is no passive ms, it is an active ms part speeding you up when activating this ability the first time. The "jump" is a kick that makes you jump. No target no jump. Walls don't usually let you jump the way you wanted to.

The Q: You say that the base scalings of this ability are too high, taking into account that it scales with 0.2Ap and 1Bonus Ad. On a pretty low range skillshot. Is that what you mean?
Assuming you max both abilities: 120 Damage increased by 1 per Ad which can critically hit plus 36 scaling by 0.2 per point of Ap.

Now imagine you get hit by the chain instead of the blade. You get pulled and take 40 / 60 / 80 / 100 / 120 (+0.6 per Ability Power) over the second you are pulled towards Xyra. On top of that that increases the cooldown by 4 seconds (by not decreasing it). This can not critically hit and doesn't apply on hit effects.

None of these hurt so much. You must have misunderstood the ability. The blade does not electrocute you. It doesn't pull you either.

Imagine you want to get close to her and simply walk towards her when she expects you to run away. She will pull you towards her, deal less damage to you (or more if she's AP, but less if she's hybrid or Ad) and you and probably your mate (say he's sitting in the brush) will be right on top of her (sure, he would walk, but you would be too far away else). You then chop down the first health bar as fast as possible making her stun herself and get an easy kill. (That's what I meant with being out of position more easily than other champs).
Sure, she can activate her e, should she have it ready and jump away, but it the ganking person has a stun or waits even further of you're still screwed. If its someone with a pull, its about the same.

If you get that, I'd like to hear your thoughts on it again.

The R: I am well aware of that and I don't intend it to be radial speed. This is the speed vertical of the tip of the chain.

"why ult when you can just qq"

If you ult that early on.. the Chain will not even stick to the enemy when he choses to just run away. He would just have to outclass 400 ms after one second and he would basically be free to go. Sure he is slowed by 10%. But hitting someone after one second means you hit him at a distance of at least 750 units. That is about the distance from where on there is a sense in hitting enemies. Not because you could just Q otherwise. This means even though you might have an AP scaling of 2.5 if you hit someone directly in front of you, that won't even damage the guy and just cancel your ult to meaninglessness. The distance from which on this does make sense, and that would still be single target is 750 units, making the target take 2 times your AP as damage over 4 seconds. Now say you hit the maximum range and hit some 3 targets with it, one at 2 seconds one at 2.5 and one at 3 seconds. Those targets would take 1.5 times your AP over 3 seconds, 1.25 times your AP and 1 time your AP. Also I can't imagine you just let it channel. You will activate it when you see that you got 3 targets hit. All of them take 0.5 times your AP for sure that way and are pulled towards you. If you don't do that, it might very well turn out that the enemy re-positions and you hit one target for little damage and pull it towards you.

It is an ultimate. It has to be powerful to some degree. Its cooldown is that of a high cc AOE ability, as which it will most likely never function. It is a medium damage long range skillshot for initiating fights chasing foes or saving mates. Its base damage could be a lot higher than it is but it is not because I mean all of her abilities to only really hurt once you built offensive items. But to really hurt once that happened.
She can very well be played as a cooldown-reduction-stacking tank/support that way, much like Amumu or Blitzcrank.

I did already explain how screwed you are in the worst case scenario. You said that wouldn't be the definition of being screwed, but I do think that it is. You quoted it and said you wouldn't be screwed in that case. I don't really see an option in pulling the tank towards you, and I don't really see an option in not doing so for it would make you unable to do anything but to walk around. Now imagine this tank to be Malphite or Amumu who can actually force an initiation. I don't think there's much worse a thing any ability could do.

And yes, you are totally right, it is not meant to deal a lot of damage. It will only hurt once some one built AP on her and The other abilities AP-scalings aren't high enough for her to be any danger when built on AP otherwise. Building AP is the only thing that might negate the worst case scenario of the ult and turn it into some thing that might hurt the enemy more than it does hurt you.

-edit-
Found some formula on LoL wiki telling me it was as follows:
Damage multiplier = 100 / (100 + Armor) if Armor ≥ 0
Damage multiplier = 2 − 100 / (100 − Armor) if Armor ≤ 0
-edit-
I'll calculate a bit with those numbers just so I get an idea of what they really mean.
I have to point out though, that arpen% is stronger against targets with more than 100 armor and flat arpen is stronger against targes without armor. Also you wouldn't possibly reach those 45 arpen mentioned int that post of yours anyways.
Say a normal close range ad got 150 bonus Ad late game. This would mean that Xyra would get another 22 arpen on top of that. That will surely hurt. Seems that I didn't even update this ability last time. I already reduced the scaling to 0.1 per bonus Ad in thoughts; Thinking about 0.05 per bonus Ad. Don't want her to shred tanks though. No punishing building armor from my side.


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Nysta

Senior Member

01-01-2013

Baby Don't Hurt Me!
Changed this part of the lore:
"Chances to survive are usually pretty bad for people that enter the hardcore mode that way because the people that survive the mode for a bit longer than usual get better equipment and are usually better by default -else they wouldn't have survived for that long. Against all odds she survived two weeks. She had now killed hundreds of people and had become a legend in the game."
to:
"Against all odds she survived two weeks. She had killed hundreds of people in the progress, full of hatred for being put in there for no reason and hatred on those people. People that killed just for fun. They deserved to die."


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Nysta

Senior Member

01-01-2013

Changed her name. Hope this one is better. If not, tell me.


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zdillon

Member

01-01-2013

Quick gap in lore: How dose she know that she would be called a gladiator in his language?

Quick fix: Victor has some translator that he used after a moment of confusion with her think she was from Runeterra.

thanks

-zdillon


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Nysta

Senior Member

01-01-2013

She refers to something of older ages. Not to something concerning his language. But I really like that you mentioned the word "language". Might add a part on that behalf seeing that there is no way she could understand him normally. They are from different worlds. Not from different spaces in the same world.

Lore time I guess! Gonna try to improve it now