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Should Riven be nerfed?

Yes, Riven should be nerfed 161 33.06%
No, Riven should not be nerfed 326 66.94%
Voters 487 .

Riven Nerf in the next Patch

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BrutalGreen

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
X Zhaitan X:
If she gets a laning phase nerf, she needs some kind of compensation late game.

Here is an idea: Riot nerfs go through, but her ultimate now has an additional passive effect which grants her 10-20-30% armor penetration on BONUS armor. That way armor stacking won't completely shut down riven.


Armor stacking doesn't shutdown riven, just get LW+BC...her real weakness is CC!


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Kuroneko321

Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
Taikero:
Yes, I only "look at number". That's the only valid way to construct an argument.

Additionally, you can't compare two champions. Riot designers have expressed this multiple times in the forums. Each champion has to be balanced separately from other champions and cannot be compared 1-to-1 against individual champions due to the possibilities of different laning choices, lane matchups, and item builds that are possible. This is exactly why balance is so difficult, because very small changes can have large effects, and it's only by comparing the old state to the new state that you can have an idea of how it affects the champion.



You don't have to achieve 100% effectiveness for it to outstrip the old 5 health per 5 seconds efficiency. Additionally, this change was made in order to force Riven players to make the choice to be aggressive when their shield is available and then back off until it's up again. This provides a cadence and counterplay that has not been present in Riven's gameplay, another point brought up by Riot amid these concerns over the so-called nerfs.



The 10 health buff on shield is worth more, so long as you're not a foolish player and never use the shield when you attack/are attacked. You will always negate the same or more damage using the shield than you would have passively with just health regeneration in the same period of time.



You're making sweeping assumptions about Riven players and you're also assuming Riven players will play stupidly and allow themselves to get hit like crazy when their shield is down. The whole point of the change is to encourage active play and discourage Riven from just sitting in the lane playing passively.



My argument also applied to cooldown reduction. Any cooldown reduction also increases the value of the extra 10 health on the shield above and beyond a measly 5 health per 5 seconds.

Additionally, if 5 health is so important to you, just build a dinky Rejuvenation Bead for 180 gold. You can either sell it off later or build it into Tiamat/Ravenous Hydra, and you not only have a stronger shield but the same health regeneration as old Riven.



You make a lot of assumptions as to what people build. Just because YOU don't build it doesn't mean other people don't build it.



Again, if you choose to limit yourself and not build into certain items, that's YOUR choice. The options are there which is why Riot is scaling things back to be more in line with counterplay early game against Riven.

All you've shown here is you don't actually care for a discussion on balance and instead you attacked me directly, which is a strategy used by people who don't actually have anything to add to the true conversation.

The entire point of this change is that it is going to shake up what Riven players are used to and force them to explore new strategies. Just because Riven players may or may not do certain things now doesn't mean new options aren't valid after these changes go into effect. Keep your mind open and minor changes like these won't feel so constricting, but you'll see where you can take advantage of the change instead.


I don't see how "Each champion has to be balanced separately from other champions and cannot be compared 1-to-1 against individual champions due to the possibilities of different laning choices, lane matchups, and item builds that are possible." leads to "only by comparing the old state to the new state that you can have an idea of how it affects the champion." If there is lots of possible match ups, try to do as much comparison as possible. Looking at the number alone isn't only way, not even right way, to construct balance argument. If number is way to look at balance, all I need to say is Riven's average base stat is much lower than other top champs and she doesn't need any nerf (actually need buff). You probably chose to only look at numbers because you simply don't have enough experience with Riven to do such an analysis. I can compare Riven to other champions because I faced numerous top champs and tried various item build. Number alone plays minor role in balance. For example, base damage is important factor for certain champions (auto attack reliant champs) ,for some it isn't (skill damage reliant champs). Nerfing base damage stat for first champs will have big impact on that champs, but for second champs, it won't be a big deal. Just looking at number is horrible way to build balance argument (league of legends is not science, there are lots of variables that need to be considered and have to look things in various direction, not just one factor). I say those who don't know champion shouldn't talk about balance because only way for them to talk balance is by looking at number, and not other variables (That's why I don't complain about other champs buff or nerf because I don't know them enough).

For the item choice, I did not assume many things. I've played Riven 300+ rounds and tried various builds. Items that I've listed above as "not good" does not synergize well with Riven. You may think I'm limiting item choice, but there is always standard builds that is optimized for each champion (Remember that item slot is limited to 6). Yes, you can choose to buy items like Zephyr or Ionian Boots, but those are not cost efficient and any good Riven player won't choose them unless situation requires those item (Zephyr, under any condition, is not good item for Riven, by the way). This is difference between your argument and my argument. You can ONLY look at numbers while I can look at both numbers and other factors (especially situational ones) that affects her.

For shield, you said that Riven player need to learn to be aggressive when shield is up, but back off when it is on CD. That's easy to say but does not happen very often in actual game. Any good opponent would try to damage exchange when her valor is out. I try to do that all the time, but doesn't happen unless I am against low skilled opponent. If she want to only engage when her valor CD is on, she need to sacrifice cs for safe play. Remember that non of her skill is ranged and she needs to be near the minion to get cs. Good top player would force damage exchange when Riven is trying to get cs. I would say, you need to stop making assumption that opponent top champs will sit down and do nothing while Riven player do whatever she wants. Top laning phase is all about knowing his/her strength and opponent's strength/weakness. Rule of thumb for damage exchange in top is "Go aggressive when opponent is weak and go defensive when opponent is strong". Under same condition (= skilled pilot), Riven would have about 6~70% success rate of 100% blocking incoming damage with her valor (opponent will try to force her to use shield with minimum damage). If both player have similar skill (which needs to be assumed for the balance talk), equal amount of HP regen/sec always triumphs additional shield because HP is permanent but shield is not (10 shield pt = 1hp/sec regen).

For shield CD reduction, ok let's talk about that. Most "decent" Riven player will buy early Brutalizer (10% CDR). Now Riven get shield point equal amount to 1.11hp/sec 1, awesome. What does that do? Nothing. Let's say Riven player decided to go damage all in and bought Ionian Boot, still 1.33hp/sec equivalent extra shield (sacrificed armor+damage reduction/MR+tenacity). And that's when Riven player used valor perfectly for every single time her e was on. Assuming that Riven player had about 70% efficient use of valor, it's about .93hp/sec, which does not cover 1hp/sec Riven nerf.

For buying Rejuvenation Bead, you know it is stupid argument if Riven need to buy additional item to have equal standing against opponent (if Riven need to buy Rejuvenation Bead, opponent can buy cloth armor and have huge laning advantage).

You said "All you've shown here is you don't actually care for a discussion on balance and instead you attacked me directly, which is a strategy used by people who don't actually have anything to add to the true conversation." Obviously because purpose of this post is to show that your argument is invalid. If you want to know what I think of Riven balance, I've wrote lengthy post about it here http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2938709 (You also posted same argument here).

I'll say it again. You don't understand Riven enough to talk about her balance because you ignored sitautional facts and decided to analyse her through numbers only. Know her better, then start to talk about her balance because this balance patch doesn't open more choice for Riven player. Rather, it only leaves Riven option to go all in at level 6 thanks to her health regen and ult CD overnerf (10 extra shield point won't affect her overall game play, 1hp/sec nerf will).




For those who think my argument have no backed up data, most of my argument is based on the http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2938709, and if you don't understand certain things, this post should cover most of it.


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ScreamPaste

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Nerfing Riven? Really? Cause you see her in so many tournaments.


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Souldier

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Everyone who voted yes are just trolls. There is NO reason to nerf Riven this hard


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NuFonZ

Member

12-31-2012

Don't nerf Riven please........................What about Jax? he is stronger than Riven. Why Riot didn't touch him?


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MeThod

Member

12-31-2012

i think you just suck


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Pîkapîka3

Member

12-31-2012

suck what?


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MeThod

Member

12-31-2012

Pîkapîka3 (8:42): cl
Pîkapîka3 (8:42): we dont
Pîkapîka3 (8:42): want u posting garbage on my forum
cL Legend (8:42): to late
Pîkapîka3 (8:43): EVERYONE
Thomyas (8:43): too late*
Pîkapîka3 (8:43): DOWNVOTE HIM!
Thomyas (8:43): ****s sake cl
Pîkapîka3 (8:43): DOWNVOTE HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pîkapîka3 (8:43): DOWNVOTE HIM!
cL Legend (8:43): yes please

=*(


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Pîkapîka3

Member

12-31-2012

cL Legend makes everyone dodge!


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Pîkapîka3

Member

12-31-2012

I'll be you're diamond, you'll be my platinum, i'll be you're gold, you'll be my silver. cL Legend!