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Should Riven be nerfed?

Yes, Riven should be nerfed 161 33.06%
No, Riven should not be nerfed 326 66.94%
Voters 487 .

Riven Nerf in the next Patch

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Spuddicus

Member

12-30-2012

Riven was powerful, and S3 made her stronger. Sorry, I love Riven, but people need to stop calling her weak because they're afraid of nerfs. This is not a champion killer like Diana or Rengar's nerfs were, this is just going to make her less of a lane bully for the early game because she scales so well on farm and kills as it is. Her late game hasn't been touched, which is where she shines anyway, so I don't see a problem.


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Pîkapîka3

Member

12-30-2012

We cannot let that Battle Bunny Riven go to a waste hehehe ^_^


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Pîkapîka3

Member

12-30-2012

Shes not really strong anymore, Today, I played as Riven vs Xin Zhao, I got first blood, and then another kill so i was 2-0 at the start, while xin zhao was 0 kills and 2 deaths, xin zhao killed me even when i was fed QQ i am baddie riven for life!


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ImVeryLegendary

Junior Member

12-30-2012

No Pika! You are #1 Riven NA!!!!!!


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Pîkapîka3

Member

12-30-2012

@ Imverylegendary, I wish i was


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Kuroneko321

Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Spuddicus:
Her late game hasn't been touched, which is where she shines anyway, so I don't see a problem.


I simply can't believe you said that, although you said you love Riven (unless your late game means 20~25 min). She does not shines at late game at all (almost no assassin can shine at late game since assassins are killed before they kill adc). She shows her presence during the mid game if she did good or at minimum decent on her laning phase (If she did bad, good bye Riven for that game). This patch nerfs her early game pretty hard, which means her mid & late game is nerfed hard as well. Get more experience with Riven then talk about her strength and weakness because it seems that you do not know her enough.

My opinion toward PBE patch: Riven do need some nerf on her ult due to Black Cleaver (Brutalizer is now Riven's core item and 10% CD Reduction is guaranteed, so her ult need some minor nerf like CD increase of like 15~20 sec), but PBE nerf goes overboard and make her incapacitated.


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Taikero

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Kuroneko321:
I've copy and pasted this from my Riven post against above argument. Person above does not have sufficient knowledge of Riven and only look at number. Let's me show why above argument is invalid.


Yes, I only "look at number". That's the only valid way to construct an argument.

Additionally, you can't compare two champions. Riot designers have expressed this multiple times in the forums. Each champion has to be balanced separately from other champions and cannot be compared 1-to-1 against individual champions due to the possibilities of different laning choices, lane matchups, and item builds that are possible. This is exactly why balance is so difficult, because very small changes can have large effects, and it's only by comparing the old state to the new state that you can have an idea of how it affects the champion.

Quote:
Kuroneko321:
Let's start with shield argument. You said that if shield is always used perfectly (as used up all shield point blocking) every 10 second, it is better health regen since she won't always be under 100% health. Let me ask you, do you even think that's possible? I played Riven more than 300 game, and I was never able to use her valor every 10 second that used 100% of her shield point. That's something that even pro gamer can't achieve.


You don't have to achieve 100% effectiveness for it to outstrip the old 5 health per 5 seconds efficiency. Additionally, this change was made in order to force Riven players to make the choice to be aggressive when their shield is available and then back off until it's up again. This provides a cadence and counterplay that has not been present in Riven's gameplay, another point brought up by Riot amid these concerns over the so-called nerfs.

Quote:
Kuroneko321:
Plus, top is all about damage trade, and most of time, she will be under 100% health, even if her shield is used perfectly (top champs easily penetrate her puny lvl 1 shield), and since she would most likely to be under 100% health, 5hp/5sec health regen is much valuable then 10 shield buff.


The 10 health buff on shield is worth more, so long as you're not a foolish player and never use the shield when you attack/are attacked. You will always negate the same or more damage using the shield than you would have passively with just health regeneration in the same period of time.

Quote:
Kuroneko321:
Shield buff argument might seems valid if only looked at ideal situation, but in fact, it's completely not adequate because she won't be able to use it every ten second to it's full potential (in fact, she would barely be able to use it to its full potential every 30 second if you actually play her). Plus, any harassment she receives between valor CD will stick much longer and completely weakens her early game.


You're making sweeping assumptions about Riven players and you're also assuming Riven players will play stupidly and allow themselves to get hit like crazy when their shield is down. The whole point of the change is to encourage active play and discourage Riven from just sitting in the lane playing passively.

Quote:
Kuroneko321:
I won't even go into lvl 2 valor argument because that's when she's way past her early laning phase (unless she want to lose her damage output and cc by not putting skill point into w)


My argument also applied to cooldown reduction. Any cooldown reduction also increases the value of the extra 10 health on the shield above and beyond a measly 5 health per 5 seconds.

Additionally, if 5 health is so important to you, just build a dinky Rejuvenation Bead for 180 gold. You can either sell it off later or build it into Tiamat/Ravenous Hydra, and you not only have a stronger shield but the same health regeneration as old Riven.

Quote:
Kuroneko321:
About CD reduction item, all CD reduction item, except Brutalizer, is not ideal for the Riven. Allow me to list all non AP and Mana CD reduction items
List: Zephyr, Zeke's Herald, Youmuu's Ghostblade, Brutalizer, Black Cleaver, Brutalizer, Stinger, Spirit Visage, Kindlegem, Ionian Boots.
Out of these items, only valid early CD items for Riven are Brutalizer, Black Cleaver, and may be Spirit Visage and Ionian under very specificity circumstances.
Reasons Why These Items are Inappropriate:
Stinger & Zephyr - not valid for Riven because she doesn't need that much attack speed and movement speed. Causes her immense damage loss and leave her useless (remember that item spots are limited).
Shurelya & Kindlegem & Zeke's Herald - Support or Jungle item and doesn't fit with Riven (buy one of these item, reported for trolling).
Youmuu's Ghostblade - Black Cleaver simply is better option
Ionian Boots - Riven is very vulnerable to CC. Without tenacity, Riven pretty much gets owned by CC and become useless in team fight. Since Zephyr isn't the one of option, this is not very viable as well.
[Exception: When enemy team got almost no CC and she's doing well enough to not buy Ninja Tabi or Mercury Threads for armor/MR]
Spirit Visage - It got very useful stats for Riven, but usually viable during late game. Go this early, she experience huge deal loss like Zephyr.
[Exception: She's losing lane against AP champs and need some tankiness to survive, but in this case, she won't be any use in team fight anyway]

This section clearly shows that you are only looking at number, but not her play style. There is reason why most Riven player not go for the Ionian Boot or Zephyr. Some Riven player occasionally go for the Ionian Boot, but that probably won't be viable after the nerf.


You make a lot of assumptions as to what people build. Just because YOU don't build it doesn't mean other people don't build it.

Quote:
Kuroneko321:
Conclusion: Riven's extra 10 shield won't be able to make her more aggressive in lane because no Riven player (including elo 2800 players) can use valor to its full potential every 10 second. In fact, since she needs to keep her health as high as possible (due to low health regen), she probably have to become very passive and won't be able to gain early advantage. Plus, most of season 3 CD reduction items, except Brutalizer and Black Cleaver, are not very viable to Riven, and cannot justify her 35 second lvl 1 ult nerf.


Again, if you choose to limit yourself and not build into certain items, that's YOUR choice. The options are there which is why Riot is scaling things back to be more in line with counterplay early game against Riven.

All you've shown here is you don't actually care for a discussion on balance and instead you attacked me directly, which is a strategy used by people who don't actually have anything to add to the true conversation.

The entire point of this change is that it is going to shake up what Riven players are used to and force them to explore new strategies. Just because Riven players may or may not do certain things now doesn't mean new options aren't valid after these changes go into effect. Keep your mind open and minor changes like these won't feel so constricting, but you'll see where you can take advantage of the change instead.


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Pîkapîka3

Member

12-30-2012

Bump


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Zhaitan

Senior Member

12-30-2012

If she gets a laning phase nerf, she needs some kind of compensation late game.

Here is an idea: Riot nerfs go through, but her ultimate now has an additional passive effect which grants her 10-20-30% armor penetration on BONUS armor. That way armor stacking won't completely shut down riven.


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BrutalGreen

Senior Member

12-31-2012

This reminds me of the days bad players cried OP for tryndamere instead of learning how to play against him and riot just bent over and nurfed him into the ground to please the baddies.

Thing is, riven is soooooooo much easier to deal with (stun/root/silence/knockup=riven dead in 1second). These nurfs will put her in a worse place than current tryn. srsly, even right now as riven, you can't do jack in a team fight against a team not afflicted with downs who have like only 2 of the aforementioned forms of cc before you buy qss (or take cleanse and gimp ur laning presence).

Please lets not let riot ditch another champion to the useless bin in order to make place for their next champ which will be broken as hell and cost 7800ip for the first week b4 it gets hotfixed and ruined a few months later down the infernal cycle to make place for yet another pay to gain elo champ...