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Why is there no Thornmail on TT??

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A Sproutling

Senior Member

12-29-2012

I just got out of a ranked game that we were supposed to win - got FB, makin da plays, etc - until Trynd hits late game and there's no stopping him. We had FH, Rand's, 2 Exhausts and Ignites - didn't help. Trynd did his right click thing and it was over.

So riddle me this - why exactly did Riot decide to remove Thornmail from TT? Did they want to guarantee wins for champs like Tryndamere? What's the reasoning behind it? Because I've got nothing, and honestly, it was an incredibly thoughtless thing to do.

Can we get it back so people like me who look to have fun over an easy win can stand a chance, please?


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A Sproutling

Senior Member

12-29-2012

If there is a good reason for this and I'm just missing it can someone let me in on the big secret?


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Waverhouse

Senior Member

12-29-2012

I don't know if there is a good reason they got rid of it besides possibly "to make games shorter".


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Here is the justification for removing it:

Quote:
RiotNome:
It's being removed for a few reasons.
1. It scales with your opponent's strength, not your own.
2. The gold necessary to counter it (on 3's anyway) far outweighs the investment to buy it.
3. It doesn't introduce any gameplay.


Quote:
RiotNome:
Well, I guess I should add #4.

4. Allows you to counter an opponent without directly interacting with him.


I don't particularly agree with (1) and (2), but definitely sympathize with (3) and (4). Those two points are good enough for me, and remains consistent with the changes to Hextech Sweeper, and the upcoming changes to Lightbringer on Dominion. I'd rather see active gameplay decisions made to counter enemy champions, rather than, "I buy this item and you're useless against me! Ha Ha!"

Further, I'm fairly certain they're working on an item to replace it that is balanced around TT.


OP, Tryndamere doesn't give a damn about your Thornmail either. In fact, he's one of the only AD Carry champions that can pretty much ignore it thanks to 6 seconds of invulnerability, and aggressive use of armor penetration. Randuin's and Frozen Heart are the best options when facing him, to reduce the number of attacks he can get off while raging endlessly.


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AndersMMO

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Further, I'm fairly certain they're working on an item to replace it that is balanced around TT.


I'm pretty sure that it is the re-worked Overlord's Bloodmail (purely my own speculation of course but think about it ;p).


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Ânders:
I'm pretty sure that it is the re-worked Overlord's Bloodmail (purely my own speculation of course but think about it ;p).


I haven't read anything about this - do you have a link?


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A Sproutling

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Waverhouse:
I don't know if there is a good reason they got rid of it besides possibly "to make games shorter".

That's a terrible reason imo.


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A Sproutling

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Redenbacher:
Here is the justification for removing it:




I don't particularly agree with (1) and (2), but definitely sympathize with (3) and (4). Those two points are good enough for me, and remains consistent with the changes to Hextech Sweeper, and the upcoming changes to Lightbringer on Dominion. I'd rather see active gameplay decisions made to counter enemy champions, rather than, "I buy this item and you're useless against me! Ha Ha!"

Further, I'm fairly certain they're working on an item to replace it that is balanced around TT.


OP, Tryndamere doesn't give a damn about your Thornmail either. In fact, he's one of the only AD Carry champions that can pretty much ignore it thanks to 6 seconds of invulnerability, and aggressive use of armor penetration. Randuin's and Frozen Heart are the best options when facing him, to reduce the number of attacks he can get off while raging endlessly.

Honestly I don't agree with any of those points. Let's get rid of Abyssal Scepter then, as you're not "actively countering" someone who's bought MR, as it's just a passive. Follow that up with Aegis, that's not active either.

"There's no gameplay involved." That doesn't make sense to me at all. The "gameplay" that comes into effect with Thornmail is allowing your opponent to hit you so they take damage, as well as yourself. That's incredibly risky gameplay to me. Someone's snowballing, you need to counter them. With the AS slow active from Randuin's gone it's pretty much impossible to counter someone like Trynd, as your carry like Brand or someone surely isn't going to build that. You're only hope is FH and that can't cut it all on it's own.

You shouldn't have to prioritize all of your items around a single champion, either. At least with Thornmail you could keep Trynd at bay for a second.

These reasonings don't make sense to me. At all.

If they really wanted to couldn't they at least make it an active item? I haven't heard anything about a new item for TT that's similar to Thorn. But that would be excellent. It wasn't like buying Thornmail was an auto win, anyway.

Riot just doesn't get it, I guess.


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

12-30-2012

That's not adding gameplay. There are only three enemies to attack in TT. The AD Carry already has to attack all three of them at some point to ace the team and push the tower. You buy Thornmail, and now they are getting punished with damage for doing their job successfully; attacking you.

That's not adding gameplay, it's punishing gameplay. On SR and Dominion it's not nearly as much of an issue because there are 5 enemies to attack instead of three.

Your comparison to aura items is silly. Aura's don't deal damage except for Sunfire, and all aura items require teamplay to take advantage of their effects. Thornmail does none of that.

I think Riot gets it much better than we ever will. We have a handful of games worth of data compared the thousands they have at hand for review.


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