Penetration needs to be reverted

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Yordles Rule

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by NessOnett View Post
Buffing armor may need to happen. But that doesn't change the fact that flat pen applying last removes tradeoffs. And makes it so there is one "build" for every offensive hero. Stack flat pen until people get resists, then get the big % item and be in a perfect spot.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Riot want to increase build diversity? And not stifle it.
Well, this assumes that stacking Pen is the one build to rule them all. Yes, you benefit more from early flat pen purchases late game, but that doesn't mean pen is the only stat in the game.

I think the change diversifies builds somewhat. Hear me out. Before, to optimize the efficiency of your MPen, you would either want to go the flat pen route, or the % pen route. combining the 2 decreased your pen efficiency. You are 100% right that flat pen was better early and % was better late, but the problem was this meant you had to decide which route to go VERY early and were stuck with that build. The new rules let you be more flexible in how you build your character depending on what items the enemy is building.

Yes, this puts more power into the hands of the AP caster, enabling them to make the most optimal build down to the minute of play they are playing in the game. Is this a good thing? I think so, for the sake of fun, but tanks suffer for it. They may need a buff/ more health item options.

tldr: I think you are right in what you say, except for the change stifling build diversity rather than diversifying it. I think this change gives greater potential for build diversity, especially changing your build on the fly to match the situation.


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Yordles Rule

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralik098 View Post
Innate sustain has already been nerfed into the ground, about a year ago they went on a spree nerfing all sustain. I believe it is one of the major reasons that top lane snowballs so hard now. It has just created a situation where it is so easy to get kills in top lane. A single kill easily puts you so far behind that you need help to recover in many matchups, otherwise you just become useless. Before they did this most lanes were passive and sustain based and they thought it was boring. But at least back then you could make a single mistake without it resulting in you getting shutout of the game. If you died it would still put you behind but you had enough sustain to where you could at least stay and farm as long as you were careful. They just made the problem even worse with the S3 patch, cheap damage and expensive tank items will make it even easier to get kills and zone people right out of the game.
I like the sustain change too. I think they were right that the super safe playing was boring, it was boring to watch in tournies anyway. If increased snowballing is an issue, they can always decrease the early game death penalties/rewards to fix/adjust this.

We might just have different opinions on what is fun to watch/play though.


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NessOnett

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yordles Rule View Post
Well, this assumes that stacking Pen is the one build to rule them all. Yes, you benefit more from early flat pen purchases late game, but that doesn't mean pen is the only stat in the game.

I think the change diversifies builds somewhat. Hear me out. Before, to optimize the efficiency of your MPen, you would either want to go the flat pen route, or the % pen route. combining the 2 decreased your pen efficiency. You are 100% right that flat pen was better early and % was better late, but the problem was this meant you had to decide which route to go VERY early and were stuck with that build. The new rules let you be more flexible in how you build your character depending on what items the enemy is building.

Yes, this puts more power into the hands of the AP caster, enabling them to make the most optimal build down to the minute of play they are playing in the game. Is this a good thing? I think so, for the sake of fun, but tanks suffer for it. They may need a buff/ more health item options.

tldr: I think you are right in what you say, except for the change stifling build diversity rather than diversifying it. I think this change gives greater potential for build diversity, especially changing your build on the fly to match the situation.
The problem is that you shouldn't be allowed to adjust every aspect at every point in the game. There are different choices that need to be made at different points. Take for example character select, there are characters, like Shaco, who risk a strong early game snowballing in exchange for a weak endgame. A choice often made, despite the possibility of it backfiring or being countered. This would be the step past that, making a choice early in the game(but later than champ select), with the potential for an extremely large payoff that can also backfire if you dont get ahead and then get countered.

And it's not as if you couldn't build % pen after building flat. It just made each one less effective on the same target(which is not bad, since you took the risk). But take note, that people often still did it for the reason of multiple targets. Flat pen allows casters to burst down squishies in an instant, while % affords them relevance versus tanks. Meaning they built both to fight different targets, which is another conscious choice.


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Yordles Rule

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by NessOnett View Post
The problem is that you shouldn't be allowed to adjust every aspect at every point in the game. There are different choices that need to be made at different points. Take for example character select, there are characters, like Shaco, who risk a strong early game snowballing in exchange for a weak endgame. A choice often made, despite the possibility of it backfiring or being countered. This would be the step past that, making a choice early in the game(but later than champ select), with the potential for an extremely large payoff that can also backfire if you dont get ahead and then get countered.

And it's not as if you couldn't build % pen after building flat. It just made each one less effective on the same target(which is not bad, since you took the risk). But take note, that people often still did it for the reason of multiple targets. Flat pen allows casters to burst down squishies in an instant, while % affords them relevance versus tanks. Meaning they built both to fight different targets, which is another conscious choice.
I agree with everything you said here except maybe the first sentence. I'm not quite sure how i feel about this change because it means you have to do less planning ahead of time. I'm not sure if this is good or bad. On one hand it gives you more freedom to optimize on the fly, on the other hand it takes away some of the initial strategic thinking that was needed before.


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NessOnett

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yordles Rule View Post
I agree with everything you said here except maybe the first sentence. I'm not quite sure how i feel about this change because it means you have to do less planning ahead of time. I'm not sure if this is good or bad. On one hand it gives you more freedom to optimize on the fly, on the other hand it takes away some of the initial strategic thinking that was needed before.
Well let's look at it from the other perspective then? Let's say youre on an average armor offensive hero. Your opponent stacks flat pen, now they do true damage to you. You can't stack armor, because they will buy a % pen item, still be doing true damage, and more damage(since % is attached to their damage attribute), and you have sunk gold into not-damage. So they are doing more, and you're doing less. (same logic applies to AP).

Making it impossible to effectively counter-build people. Which is an aspect of building. So it pidgeon-holes everyone into going all-out offensive which is why so many people right now say "armor is useless." And that can't be resolved by nerfing numbers. Nerfing numbers will just bring it to the point where pen across the board isn't worth it. aka useless. Which likewise limits build diversity having a cast of useless items.

The exception is health. But health being the only survivability in the game is bad for game balance. As well as being bad for diversity. And it makes % damage people stronger in that equilibrium.


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Jocular

Senior Member

12-29-2012

The problem is that RIOT overcompensated for the new season. Instead of just letting pens stack or just making armor worse (price/item) they did both. Now the best teams just have bruisers and assassins and tanks are left out in the cold. I thought Frozen Heart was just an arbitrary name...


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NessOnett

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jocular View Post
The problem is that RIOT overcompensated for the new season. Instead of just letting pens stack or just making armor worse (price/item) they did both. Now the best teams just have bruisers and assassins and tanks are left out in the cold. I thought Frozen Heart was just an arbitrary name...
Even if armor was as strong as it was, it wouldn't matter. Armor used to be as strong as it was, with pen the way it is now, and Riot said it was a problem. Because "there was no reason to be a tank." and "its useless to build anything but health to survive."

We've been in that situation before, it wasn't any better than it is now. It's the mechanic that's the problem, not the numbers. Simple as that.


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Yordles Rule

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by NessOnett View Post
Well let's look at it from the other perspective then? Let's say youre on an average armor offensive hero. Your opponent stacks flat pen, now they do true damage to you. You can't stack armor, because they will buy a % pen item, still be doing true damage, and more damage(since % is attached to their damage attribute), and you have sunk gold into not-damage. So they are doing more, and you're doing less. (same logic applies to AP).

Making it impossible to effectively counter-build people. Which is an aspect of building. So it pidgeon-holes everyone into going all-out offensive which is why so many people right now say "armor is useless." And that can't be resolved by nerfing numbers. Nerfing numbers will just bring it to the point where pen across the board isn't worth it. aka useless. Which likewise limits build diversity having a cast of useless items.

The exception is health. But health being the only survivability in the game is bad for game balance. As well as being bad for diversity. And it makes % damage people stronger in that equilibrium.
Making it more difficult to counter build is a good point. I think tanks got hit the worst in this, so the best anti tank pen going from 40% to 35% was a good start. The % + flat pen combination is better so nerfing the "pure" % or flat builds makes sense. Flat pen got a 25% nerf (20 to 15) and % pen got a 12.5% nerf (40 to 35). Going a full 25% nerf from 40% pen to 30% pen would sure make tanks happy (and MR stacking more beneficial). That's definitely an option open to RIOT that I would support atm.

However we're still talking about the penetration change which makes combining flat pen and % pen better, while making the previous strategy of going for just one or the other worse. I'm still not sure if this was the right change (it takes away the strategy and trade-offs associated with choosing flat or %) but one thing I do like is the openness to mix and match penetration efficiently.