Penetration needs to be reverted

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NessOnett

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by iMyung View Post
Nope. I disagree with the OP completely and I don't think he really understands how the mechanic works.
Judging by the rest of your post, it's clear you don't know how the mechanic, nor the game, works.

Flat pen wasn't "useless," it was an "early game investment." Designed to provide more damage than "damage" while your opponents were building "damage."

A ranged DPS is not going to first item a chain vest because they saw you built a brut. Because then they do nothing, since their job is to do damage. So you get the advantage of killing them easier, while being worse against people who build armor. Which is, by definition, a tradeoff.

The system we have now is what we had in beta(but I'm assuming you weren't here for that). Riot said themselves it was AWFUL for the same reasons I'm listing now. They put thousands of hours into research and testing with teams of hundreds of people. And they came to the conclusion that by disincentivizing players to build both flat and % pen that it added to build diversity, counterplay, and relevant player choice. It also prevented a lot of balance problems.


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ObscureClockwork

Senior Member

12-29-2012

personally, i feel penetration isn't the whole issue
part of it, i feel, is how strong of a laner bruisers are, and yea, penetration changes give them a better later game, so they go mid, but mids also at the same time really cant lane against them anymore.
and if you can't lane against them, and can't stay relevant because of that, why play?


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NessOnett

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ObscureClockwork View Post
personally, i feel penetration isn't the whole issue
part of it, i feel, is how strong of a laner bruisers are, and yea, penetration changes give them a better later game, so they go mid, but mids also at the same time really cant lane against them anymore.
and if you can't lane against them, and can't stay relevant because of that, why play?
Pen changes give them strong early game and strong late game

Prior they had strong early game, weak late game

Compared to AP mids who have weak early game, strong late.

There was a conscious choice teams made if they wanted their mid to be strong and shut down the enemy/snowball the sidelanes. Or if they wanted to play safer and have the stronger lategame comp(the usual choice).

So as it stands, theres no reason to go AP mid and have a comparatively weak early game. When you can go a "bruiser" mid and have a stronger early game and just as relevant(more relevant since more fed) late game.


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ObscureClockwork

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by NessOnett View Post
Pen changes give them strong early game and strong late game

Prior they had strong early game, weak late game

Compared to AP mids who have weak early game, strong late.

There was a conscious choice teams made if they wanted their mid to be strong and shut down the enemy/snowball the sidelanes. Or if they wanted to play safer and have the stronger lategame comp(the usual choice).

So as it stands, theres no reason to go AP mid and have a comparatively weak early game. When you can go a "bruiser" mid and have a stronger early game and just as relevant(more relevant since more fed) late game.
i agree, pen changes did add to the problem
its also helping old ap mids too, because they can better deal with bruisers later game now
the new items really help bruisers, and due to defense stat price increases, bruisers carry around a lot more "gold" on them from stats alone
in the end, riot really should look at the laning imo. personally, i feel you can't fix bruisers's now decent late game, because it came with all the item changes.
what you can fix is their overall power through reducing how many free stats they have


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Ralik098

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by NessOnett View Post
Judging by the rest of your post, it's clear you don't know how the mechanic, nor the game, works.

Flat pen wasn't "useless," it was an "early game investment." Designed to provide more damage than "damage" while your opponents were building "damage."

A ranged DPS is not going to first item a chain vest because they saw you built a brut. Because then they do nothing, since their job is to do damage. So you get the advantage of killing them easier, while being worse against people who build armor. Which is, by definition, a tradeoff.

The system we have now is what we had in beta(but I'm assuming you weren't here for that). Riot said themselves it was AWFUL for the same reasons I'm listing now. They put thousands of hours into research and testing with teams of hundreds of people. And they came to the conclusion that by disincentivizing players to build both flat and % pen that it added to build diversity, counterplay, and relevant player choice. It also prevented a lot of balance problems.
I agree with you that something need to change with the new penetration system. But you should really look for where they said this stuff and link it in your OP.


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NessOnett

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralik098 View Post
I agree with you that something need to change with the new penetration system. But you should really look for where they said this stuff and link it in your OP.
It was from almost 3 years ago now. And there was a lot less "order" in how Riot communicated with the community. I wouldn't have the faintest idea where to find any official statements on the matter. But people who have been here a while and have good memories should be able to confirm...or any rioters themselves.

edit: Apparently the change was made in patch 1.0.0.86, which would be a third of the way into season 1. So slightly after beta(can't remember when every change was made). Which was the patch when Malzahar was added, and spell vamp became a stat. I can try and find a statement from Riot, being after beta makes that much more likely.


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Ralik098

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Doing some quick searching and that change was made on this patch:

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/V1.0.0.86

Edit- oh, you already found that.


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ObscureClockwork

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralik098 View Post
Doing some quick searching and that change was made on this patch:

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/V1.0.0.86

Edit- oh, you already found that.
O.o didnt realize they tried this before
would much favor innate sustain nerfs tho


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Ralik098

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ObscureClockwork View Post
O.o didnt realize they tried this before
would much favor innate sustain nerfs tho
Innate sustain has already been nerfed into the ground, about a year ago they went on a spree nerfing all sustain. I believe it is one of the major reasons that top lane snowballs so hard now. It has just created a situation where it is so easy to get kills in top lane. A single kill easily puts you so far behind that you need help to recover in many matchups, otherwise you just become useless. Before they did this most lanes were passive and sustain based and they thought it was boring. But at least back then you could make a single mistake without it resulting in you getting shutout of the game. If you died it would still put you behind but you had enough sustain to where you could at least stay and farm as long as you were careful. They just made the problem even worse with the S3 patch, cheap damage and expensive tank items will make it even easier to get kills and zone people right out of the game.


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NessOnett

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralik098 View Post
Innate sustain has already been nerfed into the ground, about a year ago they went on a spree nerfing all sustain. I believe it is one of the major reasons that top lane snowballs so hard now. It has just created a situation where it is so easy to get kills in top lane. A single kill easily puts you so far behind that you need help to recover in many matchups, otherwise you just become useless. Before they did this most lanes were passive and sustain based and they thought it was boring. But at least back then you could make a single mistake without it resulting in you getting shutout of the game. If you died it would still put you behind but you had enough sustain to where you could at least stay and farm as long as you were careful. They just made the problem even worse with the S3 patch, cheap damage and expensive tank items will make it even easier to get kills and zone people right out of the game.
What he said

...but in my voice.