Penetration needs to be reverted

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

NessOnett

Senior Member

12-28-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by McNaulty View Post
That makes sense. But maybe, really, the problem is that flat penetration is too strong earlygame.
"too strong"? Thats a possibility. But it's supposed to be strong early game. Because it's supposed to be weaker late game. But it's just as strong late game. Which is the problem.

And until that aspect is resolved, we really can't say with certainty if flat pen is "too strong." Nor can we say if Kha is "too strong."

Penetration order needs to be fixed first because it is the most basic problem. And everything else is balanced around it.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

sirturkey1

Senior Member

12-28-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by McNaulty View Post
Points are logical.

However I think buffing Armor is probably a better solution, because AP damage isn't a problem right now.
No clearly making penetration better, damage cheaper and armor more expensive was the right way to go.

Also, on this note, give us back our god damned Force of Nature


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MissButtahNips

Member

12-28-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by NessOnett View Post
Fact.

The whole point of the previous penetration system was to force a trade-off. You could itemize to dominate the early game or be better in the late game. This is how balance works, to be good at one thing you make a conscious choice to inhibit yourself in another area.

But with the new system. You can go full flat pen(see:cleaver, guise, brut, etc). And if you in the end see a lot of resists on the other team, you can just build a LW/Void and be just as good. They synergize now instead of de-synergize, so theres no tradeoff.

Resists already got worse enough with the price changes. But the new pen system is...well..."toxic"(to use Riot's wording). This can be seen by the fact that Pantheon and Kha and Talon have basically replaced all AP mids(because they take the most advantage of the combination early game/late game pen help).
I rather it be the way it is now, because that is mathematically correct.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

NessOnett

Senior Member

12-28-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by potatowarlock View Post
I rather it be the way it is now, because that is mathematically correct.
"Correct" is subjective. It is mathematically stronger. But that doesn't necessarily make it better. Or more balanced.

Quite the opposite.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

McNaulty

Senior Member

12-28-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by sirturkey1 View Post
No clearly making penetration better, damage cheaper and armor more expensive was the right way to go.

Also, on this note, give us back our god damned Force of Nature
How does your tongue feel in that cheek?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Jamvert

Senior Member

12-28-2012

I agree. With the new system, where there are no tradeoffs, I don't really see the point in having magic penetration. Without tradeoffs, it seems like it is just the same as AP, except that you have to do complicated math to figure out which one will increase your damage by a larger amount.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dante49

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-28-2012

OP, I agree with you completely.

The reason the current system is bad is not that building both flat and % penetration is too strong. If something was too strong it can be adjusted and fixed. However, instead of just being strong it leaves very little option for counter play.

Before the changes, if an opponent built for early game penetration you could counter play them by building some early armor. This would slow down your own build but you'd be able to rationalize the slow down because you know your opponent also sacrificed part of their late game for the early advantage. However, under the new changes the opponent doesn't sacrifice any late game strength, but instead is even stronger late game because their flat penetration combined with late game percentage penetration can now deal near true damage all game.

The alternative is to build health. But if you only build health then they are still dealing true damage to you. But, if you build both health and armor you only slightly reduce the damage even due to the way that penetration now works.

If you're a carry you can't dedicate two or three items towards defense just to put up with an assassin character. Your only option is to build full glass cannon and hope to out damage the person. That doesn't produce meaningful game play but instead forces everyone to simply play high damage hoping their penetration works wonders faster.

tldr: The new changes remove counter play leaving a toxic system behind. Under the current system assassins are also given a much stronger ability to maintain a snowball without any downsides.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

JevelFaithful

Senior Member

12-28-2012

I would tend to agree with the OP. I'm honnestly not sure how strong it is. But the trade-off option just sounds a lot more interesting and easier to balance.
That or they readjust every thing in the game. Which would be slightly longer.

btw : bump


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

NessOnett

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterTitanic View Post
honestly its just the new black cleaver. it needs to be an either or situation with last whisper. and it shouldnt work with your teammates last whispers either.
And thats what happens when you apply flat pen before % pen, like it used to be. Because then they make each other weaker as opposed to stronger.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

iMyung

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Nope. I disagree with the OP completely and I don't think he really understands how the mechanic works.

The old penetration did not make it so you "either go flat or go % penetration." The old penetration made it so flat penetration was USELESS by design. There was literally no reason to go flat penetration because if you build any armor item you've negated all effectiveness of going flat penetration. Which means all AD champions fall off hard, given armor scaling.

Additionally, making it so flat values occur after % values made it so there was effectively little reason to have a physical based skill or a magic based skill -- having a physical damaging spell on a physical hero made you worse than having a magic based spell on a physical hero. This is Huge. The game mechanics just make no sense and for anyone to fall off hard just because they aren't given multiple platforms of skills is just plain nonsense. It was awful game design. The way it works now is no one necessarily falls as hard as they did in the old version. You have Much more viable champions that aren't held back merely by a design flaw.

Builds are more varied now than they've ever been. You can go flat AD flat Armor pen, or Armor Pen and % pen, but not do as much damage. Or just stack AD and do tons of damage. Or you can go utility Armor pen.

If they need to balance things, they can always tweak values. But this is a change that needed to happen for a long time now.

Edit: in fact, Bruisers/assassins can build somewhat tanky items now with flat armor pen without falling off hard. Or they can go raw risky damage. And AD carries can now build flat penetration if they want, they don't rush the exact same AD items every single game. If you're making an argument for less diverse builds, this is factually wrong.