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Selcopa

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnvisageX View Post
Again the main complaint and my complaint is simply this the quality of games are horrid at these ELO's. So yeah it exists can you get out yes. But it is a pain in the ass like someone said before. A pro player dodge'd the games he knew he was going to loose.
In order for the quality of games to improve, players across the board need to improve, but the problem is there are just too many facets of the game to be skilled in. 1400 players can compete with 1600-1700 players just fine, when they're in the right element. The problem is that 'element' is very narrow for a 1400 player, they need to have certain things on their own team, as well as the opponents team for them to be successful. And there are just not enough for those scenarios for the 1400 player to maintain a higher elo. As they develop more situations, they will do better.

But as I said, in order to have more 'good' games, you'd have to raise the average skill of a 1400 player.

Quote:
So yes make a smurf account if your that great, Don't dodge a game. Make it to 1900. You won't that quickly. I don't see it riot knew it thats why there was no real reset of ELO just a joke of this soft reset. I'd love to see the really good players in games that low in solo que not duo'ing. In the pool of all the people at the 900 to 1200 range I would bet they do well but not as well as everyone thinks. If it would have been the case riot would have just reset everyone to 1200 at the beginning of the season.
ive been playing around with ranked lately, im around 1450, is that low enough? My games are only worth about 12 now too.

If you give me access to a 1200 account ill win whatever games you want me to win.

Will it take time? Sure maybe for normal players, I don't understand why that's a problem, it isn't as if you hit some magical barrier and 'break out' games don't magically get good once you hit a certain benchmark, they simply fight over smaller and smaller edges as you go up. Any game is capable of having a 'good' game, but its very easy to snowball at lower elos.

As far as pros at 1200, I remember doublelift in Korean servers going something like 48-6 just shooting up the elo, its been done, you aren't saying anything innovative, everything you've complained about not happened with pro players has done it probably


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EnvisageX

Member

01-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selcopa View Post
In order for the quality of games to improve, players across the board need to improve, but the problem is there are just too many facets of the game to be skilled in. 1400 players can compete with 1600-1700 players just fine, when they're in the right element. The problem is that 'element' is very narrow for a 1400 player, they need to have certain things on their own team, as well as the opponents team for them to be successful. And there are just not enough for those scenarios for the 1400 player to maintain a higher elo. As they develop more situations, they will do better.
I agree with that statement that some players can or could compete at 1600 to 1700. Your probably one of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selcopa View Post
If you give me access to a 1200 account ill win whatever games you want me to win.

As far as pros at 1200, I remember doublelift in Korean servers going something like 48-6 just shooting up the elo, its been done, you aren't saying anything innovative, everything you've complained about not happened with pro players has done it probably
Thats KR, and he probably dodged a game or two. The point of me saying the soft ELO reset was a joke is cause it was. Not everyone would have re climbed to diamond status so quickly. As with any "sport" every team and every person starts at 0. Also we would have probably saw a few new fresh faces at a higher ELO. Will people who deserve to be there eventually get there yes. But reset the whole player base and I bet right now the top of the ladder looks significantly different.

As far as saying you can win whatever games with no dodging I'm calling BS. Maybe you typed it wrong so I'm not going to take it out of context. But on a 1200 account or even 900 account good luck with that.

Your a descent dude selcopa I wasn't really trying to attack you personally, sorry if thats how it came off. I just have seen your undying faith in this ELO system. I'm so curious as to why you have it. The system is flawed. Its broken. There are many things that could be done to fix it but you shoot them down saying its fine every single time. I would stake any amount of money there are at least a handful of players stuck in a low ELO that are at least plat or better.

Now just to wrap this up I have seen players who wonder why they are in the 900 to 1300 range. I just laugh every time well you deserve to be there. There are some that absolutely do deserve to be there. But not every single person down there does. Its easy to see, to spot someone who is awful. So I will partially agree on that. You can't carry 100% of games its a team game.


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Unkynd

Senior Member

01-01-2013

I have an account with 1700 rating, but I have trouble getting past 1300 rating on this account. ELO hell exists, I don't care what anyone else says. There are 1700+ players at 1100 rating, but there are also a lot of 500 players. Sometimes you just can't win.


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EnvisageX

Member

01-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unkynd View Post
I have an account with 1700 rating, but I have trouble getting past 1300 rating on this account. ELO hell exists, I don't care what anyone else says. There are 1700+ players at 1100 rating, but there are also a lot of 500 players. Sometimes you just can't win.
Exactly, and thanks for being that honest.


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Baxter the Teddy

Senior Member

01-01-2013

Get a 400 ELO account, give it to SoSleepy and watch him make it Plat, again.

The simple fact is there is no inescabable segement of ELO. First timers struggle and take a long time to get out of this ELO range, players who have the attitude and desire to get out. Many players don't. Consistenly high ELO and pro players have travelled these waters before and know EXACTLY what to do to get out.

I am not sure why it matters. Whatever happens, this range will exist. There will always be a range where MOST people fall into, and with the larger population, more trolls and afk'ers and what not. Those with the desire, skill, attitude and eventually knowledge will escape, those who don't, won't.


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FIN Sawyer30

Senior Member

01-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Youshroom View Post
Sepetaiya, I first want to apologize for sounding critical of you.

And secondly, I do believe in the inequity of matchmaking. But we ALL have to go through it, even pro players. So noone has an edge or the other. You have just as much of a chance being paired with a bad team as the other team does. YOU are the changing factor of the game, logically implied. There is always something you can get better at, and if you do, you WILL get out of "elo hell." Why do you think Dyrus or any pro players will never be on this forum crying about elo hell? Even if they make a smurf acc, or get a low elo smurf acc (like dignitas i will dominate, if i am not mistaken)
Listen. Elo hell does exist, and you keep saying people are ignorant and need to stop being so stubborn and having toxic behavior.

The thing is, you're acting the same way. Saying that it's everyones fault that they're stuck in elo hell is incorrect. As said in an earlier post, this game is a team game. Yes, some people do go 20 and 0 and say that they should be plat etc. Some are may be right, many may be wrong.

The matchmaking is balanced, but that doesn't make it fair. Everyone has the equal chance to get someone who isn't the sharpest tool in the shed even if they're extremely good. The issue with matchmaking is that people start at 1200. If they changed the starting elo to the base elo, or something lower i.e 800 or something, it might change. People who are in the 1200 range and are trying to get out may put paired up with or against people who are doing their 1st 10 games. How is that fair? Sure it's balanced and everyone has the same opportunity to get people like that, but as I said it doesn't make the system fair.

There isn't much you can do to get out of elo hell except to be either good in all roles, or extremely good in one particular role so that you can help to snowball the rest of your team as well as yourself. I do agree that if you can't carry yourself out, that you more than likely deserve to be there. The afkers, ragers, inten feeders and other toxic behaving players do make it quite difficult though.

Your point about the pros never being stuck in elo has a lot of credit. But, I've seen pros play on their smurfs at the start of S3 and after their 10 games some won 7 and lost 3, others did better...but they were all placed back where they were last season. I won 7 and lost 3 and I was placed at 1350. Sorry, that doesn't seem fair. Why do people who had diamond last season have to skip playing with the toxic players? How is that fair? If you've been diamond since S1 you probably haven't seen 1200 elo on your account since the launch of this game. I don't think that how well you did in the previous season should affect where you're placed in the next one.

That's my 2 cents on this topic.


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Selcopa

Senior Member

01-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnvisageX View Post
I agree with that statement that some players can or could compete at 1600 to 1700. Your probably one of them.
Used to hang out around 1900 last season, now im trying new things out
And the point of that statement is that in certain situations yeah they can, but because they cant do it all the time, they go down, where as a 1900 player can much much more frequently hang with 1900 players.

Quote:
Thats KR, and he probably dodged a game or two.
Lol, in 1 sentence you said to awfully wrong things.
KR has a higher quality gameplay, as in their 1400s are superior to US 1400s.
He streamed the whole time, you think he dodged a game and went and jacked off? No, he was making money, he did not dodge
Quote:
The point of me saying the soft ELO reset was a joke is cause it was. Not everyone would have re climbed to diamond status so quickly.
This happened last season too, and its smart, even just compressing the brackets a bit causes so many games that aren't fun because of massive mismatches, reset all the way to 1200? It would go forever, the elo hell posts would be even more rampant "The other team always get a diamond player cuz of the reset
Quote:
As with any "sport" every team and every person starts at 0. Also we would have probably saw a few new fresh faces at a higher ELO.
They did start everyone at 0, in competitive play, all the teams started with 0 points again. Solo Queue is not a sport. This is a ladder, SC2 ladder doesn't reset all the way back down every season.

And no, we wouldn't see new players at high elo, itd be the same players, the only difference is, high elo would be 1800, instead of 2400.
Will people who deserve to be there eventually get there yes. But reset the whole player base and I bet right now the top of the ladder looks significantly different.

Quote:
As far as saying you can win whatever games with no dodging I'm calling BS. Maybe you typed it wrong so I'm not going to take it out of context. But on a 1200 account or even 900 account good luck with that.
I refuse to dodge, its a terrible game theory concept and overall its a waste of time, id rather get some laning experience and lose the game then go jack off for 30 minutes.

If I were given a 900 elo account would I win every game? No, but I would win plenty of games that it wouldn't be a big deal when I got trolled. And the key thing is I would win many games that you would have dodged because you thought it was unwinnable.

Quote:
I just have seen your undying faith in this ELO system. I'm so curious as to why you have it. The system is flawed. Its broken. There are many things that could be done to fix it but you shoot them down saying its fine every single time. .
Because I have experience in game theory and variance in other systems and I actually know what im talking about.

There are not "many things" that could be done to improve the elo system, there's one(reintroduce elo loss for dodging, but slightly different) to reduce trolling and more effectively remove toxic players, this is the only possible improvement from a game theory perspective. Every other single other idea to date has been terrible, anything that awards elo for actions that aren't winning,losing or a draw, does not work in an elo system, its literally impossible to implement that idea without ruining an elo system, literally sit down and actually think about the consequences of any addition to the elo system you have. Every single time you will create an abuseable scenario that damages the accuracy of the elo system

Quote:
I would stake any amount of money there are at least a handful of players stuck in a low ELO that are at least plat or better
Find 1, ill give you a $25 RP card, you don't even have to bet me, just find 1 person who is stuck below 1400, hell, 1500, for an extended period of time and is playing like a plat person.

Quote:
Now just to wrap this up I have seen players who wonder why they are in the 900 to 1300 range. I just laugh every time well you deserve to be there. There are some that absolutely do deserve to be there. But not every single person down there does. Its easy to see, to spot someone who is awful. So I will partially agree on that. You can't carry 100% of games its a team game.
You see one game of a player who is stuck in that range and they play well you say "oh they deserve to be higher", actually friend them and watch them play 20 games, if they aren't moving up theres a good chance that youll see why during those 20 games.


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EnvisageX

Member

01-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selcopa View Post
Lol, in 1 sentence you said to awfully wrong things.
KR has a higher quality gameplay, as in their 1400s are superior to US 1400s.
He streamed the whole time, you think he dodged a game and went and jacked off? No, he was making money, he did not dodge
Thats what I ment by that KR has a higher quaility of gameplay, than the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selcopa View Post
This happened last season too, and its smart, even just compressing the brackets a bit causes so many games that aren't fun because of massive mismatches, reset all the way to 1200? It would go forever, the elo hell posts would be even more rampant "The other team always get a diamond player cuz of the reset

They did start everyone at 0, in competitive play, all the teams started with 0 points again. Solo Queue is not a sport. This is a ladder, SC2 ladder doesn't reset all the way back down every season.

And no, we wouldn't see new players at high elo, itd be the same players, the only difference is, high elo would be 1800, instead of 2400.
Will people who deserve to be there eventually get there yes. But reset the whole player base and I bet right now the top of the ladder looks significantly different.
Ah I still think we would have seen new fresh faces. The team resets yes. But even solo still its competitive. There should be no reset at all then for solo que games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selcopa View Post
I refuse to dodge, its a terrible game theory concept and overall its a waste of time, id rather get some laning experience and lose the game then go jack off for 30 minutes.

If I were given a 900 elo account would I win every game? No, but I would win plenty of games that it wouldn't be a big deal when I got trolled. And the key thing is I would win many games that you would have dodged because you thought it was unwinnable.
I don't like to dodge either unless players are fighting in champ select and we get like 4 APs or something weird. I do not make a habit of dodging one I also would rather play. But at times it is almost necessary to dodge. Hell today I had a game that I still carried with a intentional feeder. I mean you can carry a game with people who don't have a clue. Last night my gf was putting our daughter to sleep and I had to jump on her account and wound up going 44/3/4 to carry the game. Right now I'm on about a 7 or 8 game win streak again. With no dodges. If i think a game is even 30% winnable I will not dodge sometimes even a lower chance than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selcopa View Post
Find 1, ill give you a $25 RP card, you don't even have to bet me, just find 1 person who is stuck below 1400, hell, 1500, for an extended period of time and is playing like a plat person.
Sure I know one, Me. Its the fact I don't dodge that I got stuck here you figure lets say i am of 1900 caliber. then lets say i have people who are around 800ish in the theoretical rating. The other team has one or two in the same theoretical rating and another that should be 1500+. When you start doing the math you come up with lots of results and lots of possibilities where it is almost impossible to carry.

My ELO will go up I will hit gold soon enough. After that plat I don't really see being a problem. There are just things that no one can do if their team isn't competent. I wish I could solo a whole team by myself sometimes I can duo a game, but completely solo, nope. I can't force people to come to dragon or defend jungle. I can't force someone to go top or bot to follow up with the jungler.

But then again just like that game I played today just to get my first win bonus of the day, I had to take extra chances, do more damage, and even put myself in situations that I knew would get me killed, that I normally would not get myself into. But at least allow for easy cleanup

Right now I am playing a lot with my gf as she learns the game etc, so I'm not playing as many per day as I used to.

One last thing before you rip me on this one. If i have even 4 team mates that can just even not die or feed. I can carry the game with little to no problem. Usually even if 2 or 3 feed no problem again. Sometimes its just to damn hard when the other team realizes who's actually dealing the damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selcopa View Post
You see one game of a player who is stuck in that range and they play well you say "oh they deserve to be higher", actually friend them and watch them play 20 games, if they aren't moving up theres a good chance that youll see why during those 20 games.
I have I get a lot of friend requests after games. So I sometimes watch just to see if that person is as good as I thought sometimes they are sometimes they aren't. .

One last thing I wish I would have been more selective at the start of the season. I sort of gave up and played support way to much. I slacked didn't practice any of my other roles and neglected them. That was my mistake the though and I guess I'm paying for it now.


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EnvisageX

Member

01-04-2013

Just wanted to add no matter what I still believe not resetting the solo que ELO is still a joke. I mean even if like you say plat players would be in games people would be crying about it they would surely move up at a quick pace and be out of that range and there should be no more crying. A day or two's worth. If they moved up that fast.


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