Summoners who verbally abuse their team lose 16% more games.

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Esteris

Senior Member

12-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHaro View Post
"Correlation does not mean causation" is a theme taught to me by my statistics teacher in highschool.
The problem is that your high school teachers tend to lie to you. When you get to college, you find this out.


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davin

Senior User Researcher

12-27-2012
6 of 6 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmett Teller View Post
I must be wasting my time studying Sociology because I couldn't follow that at all.
Definitely not a waste--but as you go deeper in social science fields you'll find that having strong stats knowledge will put you far ahead of your colleagues and really make you stand out! Because social science relies on fuzzier measures, knowing your tools (e.g., statistics, psychometrics, etc.) super-well is a major asset


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Ronnie Law

Senior Member

12-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esteris View Post
The problem is that your high school teachers tend to lie to you. When you get to college, you find this out.
Well since you payed someone to say it to you, it must be true.
Give people money to educate you, and you become smarter.
Seems like a legit assumption.


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Mustkill46

Junior Member

12-27-2012

I agree with this on a high level, as i have raged and been banned numerous times, and lost.
When i show restraint and don't abuse people, i find i don't win a substantial amount more games.


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Esteris

Senior Member

12-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie Law View Post
Well since you payed someone to say it to you, it must be true.
Give people money to educate you, and you become smarter.
Seems like a legit assumption.
Washington has been doing it for years. You'll be surprise how legit it is.


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Ronnie Law

Senior Member

12-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esteris View Post
Washington has been doing it for years. You'll be surprise how legit it is.
Yeah, but I don't envy their Christmas schedule or their approval ratings!


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JevelFaithful

Senior Member

12-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie Law View Post
As far as the whole rebound thing, again I think it is an assumption that negative reinforcement cannot result in a positive outcome.

"Stop playing like a noob and farm under your turret, I'll be there in a minute to save your lane."

Overall, the language here is very negative, and it will likely be seen as a negative attitude.
I'm not going to pretend it's a positive statement but I do believe it to be a REALISTIC statement.
REALISTIC attitudes win games, not positive or negative attitudes.
Those parts really bugged me reading your post : the quote is negative, but it's not flaming or ranting. Verbal abuse would be closer to "Stop playing like a noob" repeated 10x during the 30 min match.
You are right in that what you say will help you win. You are wrong in that it's not what we're talking about. It is actually constructive, not an abuse.You are promising help in your quote and actually helping the guy getting back in the game.

Realistic statements win games, that's true. Realistic can be negative but it can also be positive. LIke that "Be careful, farm under your turret. I'll be therein a minute to save your lane". It's the same, just as realistic, just without the noob part. That quote is not negative, it's realistic and it will make you win just like yours. Are you thinking because it's positive it will worsen his playing?

ON a personnal level : when your teammates rage at you, loose a full minute playing to tell you in chat that you're a noob and should uninstall. Does that make you play better? Does that make you win the game? (Obviously no because even if you don't loose, the fact he wasted 1 minute means HE looses)
Chances are it'd make you nervous, tense. And you'd do more mistakes. I know for me, the times I play the best are when I'm tense but not nervous, just playing for the sake of playing, not asleep or not-caring. That doesn't mean I'm not trying to win, it just means there isn't an idiot to annoy me. Heck, just writing this I notice I'm doing more typos then when I started typing.
And If the only people typing are flaming me, they probably are not playing with the team, my reaction is to just "quit" trying to win. I don't care about those games. I won't do it every time, but there's a chance I'll just quit trying to play with them.


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Ronnie Law

Senior Member

12-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statiqhock View Post
Those parts really bugged me reading your post : the quote is negative, but it's not flaming or ranting. Verbal abuse would be closer to "Stop playing like a noob" repeated 10x during the 30 min match.
You are right in that what you say will help you win. You are wrong in that it's not what we're talking about. It is actually constructive, not an abuse.You are promising help in your quote and actually helping the guy getting back in the game.

Realistic statements win games, that's true. Realistic can be negative but it can also be positive. LIke that "Be careful, farm under your turret. I'll be therein a minute to save your lane". It's the same, just as realistic, just without the noob part. That quote is not negative, it's realistic and it will make you win just like yours. Are you thinking because it's positive it will worsen his playing?

ON a personnal level : when your teammates rage at you, loose a full minute playing to tell you in chat that you're a noob and should uninstall. Does that make you play better? Does that make you win the game? (Obviously no because even if you don't loose, the fact he wasted 1 minute means HE looses)
Chances are it'd make you nervous, tense. And you'd do more mistakes. I know for me, the times I play the best are when I'm tense but not nervous, just playing for the sake of playing, not asleep or not-caring. That doesn't mean I'm not trying to win, it just means there isn't an idiot to annoy me. Heck, just writing this I notice I'm doing more typos then when I started typing.
And If the only people typing are flaming me, they probably are not playing with the team, my reaction is to just "quit" trying to win. I don't care about those games. I won't do it every time, but there's a chance I'll just quit trying to play with them.
First off, yes I believe that a personal attack on someones play does sometimes yield results.

Let me give you a recent example.

I queued in a game and got a jungle pantheon on my team.
I told him it was bad and why I thought so.
I realize that there are probably many players capable of jungling panth just fine, but I do not believe that the majority of players posses the acumen to overcome his deficiencies in the jungle adequately enough to be effective.
Point is, I did not want him to jungle Panth, and he chose to anyway.
There are a few likely reasons.
Maybe he actually is good at jungle panth, but lolking provided no instances of him winning with pantheon in the jungle ranked.
Maybe lolking was wrong, but which scenario is more likely?
It is more likely that he is new to ranked and is only comfortable with a few champions.
This would be a likely line of reasoning towards jungling a suboptimal jungler against your teams wishes, especially when forced into the jungling role.
There are probably infinite other possibilities but these seem most likely, and to me, the second scenario is definitely the realistic one.

So, dude jungles panth, fails miserably and I flame him hard core and just go nuts letting him know why it doesn't work. He gets very mad, because I have challenged his identity, worldview and basic logical processing capabilities.

So post game, he invites me to a 1v1 match, so I set up murder bridge, pick GP and destroy him.
He gets mad, says it's because MB is a stupid map and challenges me again on SR 1v1.
I let him know that he is at a disadvantage to do so, but that I will adhere to his rule that only mid lane may be contested.
Again, I school him, again with GP, and let him know under no uncertain terms that he just got rolled by a champ that he counters.

Now, all of this may seem very negative, and in many ways it is.
But the point is, without that challenge to the worldview when a flawed conclusion is reached, improvement and invalidation of bad logic cannot happen.

The hope is that he was beaten so badly, demoralized so completely, that he either plays Pantheon on a level much higher than he was, thus ACTUALLY being able to perform the role he accepted, or he does not choose Pantheon for that role again.

This is beneficial for both him and his future team mates.
And as I will not be playing with him again, could be argued as altruistic, even though all I really did was beat up on him.

To be clear, I don't believe that negativity in team games is blatantly good or always results in wins. I just don't believe it is sufficient to say that flaming is a qualitative cause of a significant percentile of losses. There's a leap of logic happening there that seems more akin to rationalization rather than causation.


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Malinaccier

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Junior Member

12-27-2012

It's cool that you have population data to work with (by nature of the game being self contained)...I hope the higher ups at Riot understand how well any models about player behavior would be for predicting. You should hire a behavioral economist (although it looks like you have some already).

It would be awesome if you guys published data on wins/losses with champs as well as end game results. I would love to play around with it in Stata for a bit.


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5554447

Senior Member

12-27-2012

Damn son, you must've gotten an A in that stats class.