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The State Of Katarina.

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SonsofaBastages

Senior Member

12-31-2012

No one wants to buff Kat (not sure why everyone thinks this is what anyone - including the OP - is asking for). Some AD ratios to make her a hybrid again would be nice (obviously at the cost of AP ratios - seriously do I really have to point that out?) but most people just want to play old Kat again. Then new Kat is less binary and is more consistently useful but just not as interesting. That's the issue here. New Kat is boring. That's what all these qq threads are about. No one want's her buffed, we all just want her to be fun to play again.


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Whyumai

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
FrozenChinchilla:

The synergy is the fact that she can jump from person to person incredibly fast. She's the fastest champion in the game. All you need to do is jump from squishy to squishy and it's free kills.
Have you tried AD Elise? She's pretty amazing too.


tbh: if Katarina didn't have AD ratios you can still do this build. From the sounds of it basically it's just using one gap closer to gap close on a typical AD build.

Remove AD ratios on Katarina. There no reason to continue having AD ratios for troll builds.


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Peacë

Senior Member

12-31-2012

I have recently been playing around on katarina. I had a good game on AD kat, but here are some issues. We will assume that we are not in instant killing machine, so the passive is relevant, but not as relevant as with AP kat.

The first question is, what spells do we want to focus on?

Q has a long cast time animation, and offers some damage. It would be better if it had AD ratios, but the cast time animation would interfere with auto attacks.

W has a short animation (I cannot remember if it interferes with AA), offers move speed, does local AoE damage. This spell will allow us to stick to our targets to AA. Higher levels allow us to stick better.

E allows for us to get to our target, and to escape. Higher levels reduce the cooldown. Lower cooldown allows high amounts of relocation in fights, allowing for better sticking and escapes, reducing risk.

R I am unsure about. Using it feels like a huge drop in damage when you are AD. It is still nice if you have a group of people around you, and you need to drop them just a little to get off a chain of spells. However, use of this spell also reduces your stickiness if you cannot get off another E shortly.

For AD kat, we can see that W and E are superior to Q. So let us assume that we base our build around maxing W, while maxing E second.

Reducing time between harass, and getting in and out quick, are very important. So we need CDR. We also need physical damage though, so we need +physical damage. What does this imply? It implies we want brutalizer. However, as it currently stands, no spell will benefit from the Armor pen, just the AA. This is not to say we should make W a physical damage spell just so we can make brutalizer work better with her, but shifting W to physical would go a long ways towards making AD Kat's AA and Kit damage types feel more in harmony. Doing so may even make AP Kat feel better, as it would allow other things to be shifted.

The ratios on W and R I will leave to other posts.

TLDR: W->Physical Damage = major improvement for AD Kat.

PS: If you want a fun challenge, play Kat without Q.

PPS: I realize this post makes it sound that I just picked up Kat. However, I have played Kat for quite a while.


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Katarìna

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
Spiragon:
I have recently been playing around on katarina. I had a good game on AD kat, but here are some issues. We will assume that we are not in instant killing machine, so the passive is relevant, but not as relevant as with AP kat.

The first question is, what spells do we want to focus on?


Depends. If you're doing a purer AD build with stuff like BT/Hydra, then you want to focus on Sinister Steel and rank Lotus a 6/11/16

If you're playing like I do, it's more about what the game you're in is currently challenging you with. If you need more ranged harass, BB, if you don't, SS. And Lotus should only get one point at around level 10. Your early game is focused mainly on attack/retreat harassing.

Quote:
Spiragon:

Q has a long cast time animation, and offers some damage. It would be better if it had AD ratios, but the cast time animation would interfere with auto attacks.

W has a short animation (I cannot remember if it interferes with AA), offers move speed, does local AoE damage. This spell will allow us to stick to our targets to AA. Higher levels allow us to stick better.

E allows for us to get to our target, and to escape. Higher levels reduce the cooldown. Lower cooldown allows high amounts of relocation in fights, allowing for better sticking and escapes, reducing risk.

R I am unsure about. Using it feels like a huge drop in damage when you are AD. It is still nice if you have a group of people around you, and you need to drop them just a little to get off a chain of spells. However, use of this spell also reduces your stickiness if you cannot get off another E shortly.

For AD kat, we can see that W and E are superior to Q. So let us assume that we base our build around maxing W, while maxing E second.

Reducing time between harass, and getting in and out quick, are very important. So we need CDR. We also need physical damage though, so we need +physical damage. What does this imply? It implies we want brutalizer. However, as it currently stands, no spell will benefit from the Armor pen, just the AA. This is not to say we should make W a physical damage spell just so we can make brutalizer work better with her, but shifting W to physical would go a long ways towards making AD Kat's AA and Kit damage types feel more in harmony. Doing so may even make AP Kat feel better, as it would allow other things to be shifted.

The ratios on W and R I will leave to other posts.

TLDR: W->Physical Damage = major improvement for AD Kat.

PS: If you want a fun challenge, play Kat without Q.

PPS: I realize this post makes it sound that I just picked up Kat. However, I have played Kat for quite a while.


Sinister Steel doing physical damage would make her kit kind of whacky for AP Kats. If the damage type changed to physical if you had more AD than AP, that would be cool, but confusing for noobs and a barrier to entrance.

The fun challenge is playing her without Lotus. BB is pretty necessary in every game. I'm not shooting your idea down, but a damage type change is less realistic than an AD ratio addition. I appreciate the fact that you had an idea in the first place, thanks for posting man.

Brutalizer is good if you're turning it into a Ghostblade. A crit build benefits heavily from the Rice Blade setup, and the move/attack speed active.


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Tio Shadow

Member

12-31-2012

I actually posted in some of the discussions when kat was reworked, because she's the only champion I really enjoy playing regardless of what happens in the match (even before, so don't "she's easy and can get kills even when doing poorly" me pls). I don't play endless hours a day though, so it took me some time to understand what really changed in her gameplay.

I hate that now she has a safe, easy and REALLY LOW damage output. Almost any player can dish damage with her because of how her new skills work, but because she's resourceless, almost only have aoe dmg and has a cd reset, she doesn't deal much damage by herself. She isn't such a gamechanging element as she was before.

She's now a character directed only at teamfights, even more so than before... an assassin who can't kill carries when jumping on them except when overly fed (well built Vaynes or even Fioras at the same level with no MR at all won't get killed by her burst and will outdamage her ult with autoattacks, for instance) is kinda lame to me. But hey, she's not an assassin anymore, right? Just an AoE caster? :/

I know Riot wanted to make her not too reliant on her ult because it's easily disrupted and then toned it down, but I think another solution could be just making her ult not so easily disrupted in the first place. A different mechanic with a more balanced skill curve for both sides (both the player that controls her and the ones who'll have to stop her).

But hey, I still have good results with her and I still have fun. I kinda miss tentacle hair a bit, though...

About AD kat, giving how low her [Q,W,E] ratios are, if you don't really plan on the ult, wouldn't it be interesting to try a tankier/CDR build? Just an idea, I never tried that. xD


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FrozenChinchilla

Master Recruiter

12-31-2012

Quote:
Tio Shadow:
I actually posted in some of the discussions when kat was reworked, because she's the only champion I really enjoy playing regardless of what happens in the match (even before, so don't "she's easy and can get kills even when doing poorly" me pls). I don't play endless hours a day though, so it took me some time to understand what really changed in her gameplay.

I hate that now she has a safe, easy and REALLY LOW damage output. Almost any player can dish damage with her because of how her new skills work, but because she's resourceless, almost only have aoe dmg and has a cd reset, she doesn't deal much damage by herself. She isn't such a gamechanging element as she was before.

She's now a character directed only at teamfights, even more so than before... an assassin who can't kill carries when jumping on them except when overly fed (well built Vaynes or even Fioras at the same level with no MR at all won't get killed by her burst and will outdamage her ult with autoattacks, for instance) is kinda lame to me. But hey, she's not an assassin anymore, right? Just an AoE caster? :/

I know Riot wanted to make her not too reliant on her ult because it's easily disrupted and then toned it down, but I think another solution could be just making her ult not so easily disrupted in the first place. A different mechanic with a more balanced skill curve for both sides (both the player that controls her and the ones who'll have to stop her).

But hey, I still have good results with her and I still have fun. I kinda miss tentacle hair a bit, though...

About AD kat, giving how low her [Q,W,E] ratios are, if you don't really plan on the ult, wouldn't it be interesting to try a tankier/CDR build? Just an idea, I never tried that. xD


Bruiser Katarina actually works very well, but it takes away from her extremely powerful mid game presence.

You could build damage until the end of mid game and then start building pure tank, however.


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Peacë

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
Katarìna:
Depends. If you're doing a purer AD build with stuff like BT/Hydra, then you want to focus on Sinister Steel and rank Lotus a 6/11/16

If you're playing like I do, it's more about what the game you're in is currently challenging you with. If you need more ranged harass, BB, if you don't, SS. And Lotus should only get one point at around level 10. Your early game is focused mainly on attack/retreat harassing.



Sinister Steel doing physical damage would make her kit kind of whacky for AP Kats. If the damage type changed to physical if you had more AD than AP, that would be cool, but confusing for noobs and a barrier to entrance.

The fun challenge is playing her without Lotus. BB is pretty necessary in every game. I'm not shooting your idea down, but a damage type change is less realistic than an AD ratio addition. I appreciate the fact that you had an idea in the first place, thanks for posting man.

Brutalizer is good if you're turning it into a Ghostblade. A crit build benefits heavily from the Rice Blade setup, and the move/attack speed active.


I will try ghostblade on kat.

Playing without lotus sounds like fun. I'll probably just max W+E all the way to 10.... in bot lane for the double kills >.>.

I agree completely that the build (at least competetivly) should be based upon the current game. However, I do feel that there should be a stark line of distinction between AD Kat and AP Kat. I worry that putting and AD ratio back on BB is the wrong direction. I worry because having AD ratios on BB may promote similar styles of play between AD and AP. Yes, reducing ranged poke for AD is painful, but I feel it justifies strengths elsewhere. I would like to argue that if we need to stay back and poke, we should go AP. I feel as though AD could have its place with a more sustained, less situation oriented (as in timing/stuns) approach.

I agree that making W physical would make it a little weird for AP Kats, and that making the damage type switch would be awkward as well. For sake of argument (although I hate this type of argument), many champs have spells of another type, such as Panthon and Yorick. Perhaps, we could remove the AP ratio from W, and increase it on E. This would make her kit more difficult, but also a bit less messy feeling (it might just be me, but I do feel as though her current kit is a bit spammy). I realize that this proposition is incredibly unlikely.

Sorry if there are some weird points, I had to edit some stuff out.


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Katarìna

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
Spiragon:
I will try ghostblade on kat.

Playing without lotus sounds like fun. I'll probably just max W+E all the way to 10.... in bot lane for the double kills >.>.

I agree completely that the build (at least competetivly) should be based upon the current game. However, I do feel that there should be a stark line of distinction between AD Kat and AP Kat. I worry that putting and AD ratio back on BB is the wrong direction. I worry because having AD ratios on BB may promote similar styles of play between AD and AP. Yes, reducing ranged poke for AD is painful, but I feel it justifies strengths elsewhere. I would like to argue that if we need to stay back and poke, we should go AP. I feel as though AD could have its place with a more sustained, less situation oriented (as in timing/stuns) approach.

I agree that making W physical would make it a little weird for AP Kats, and that making the damage type switch would be awkward as well. For sake of argument (although I hate this type of argument), many champs have spells of another type, such as Panthon and Yorick. Perhaps, we could remove the AP ratio from W, and increase it on E. This would make her kit more difficult, but also a bit less messy feeling (it might just be me, but I do feel as though her current kit is a bit spammy). I realize that this proposition is incredibly unlikely.

Sorry if there are some weird points, I had to edit some stuff out.


No matter what potential change, the fact of the matter is that Sinister Steel is would still be the pivotal skill across any build, be it AP, AD, Tank, or whatever. Riot just made it too good.

AP needs it because it's spammy and AoE. AD needs it for the move speed and the fact that it scales with AD. Tankarina needs it because her output isn't that great.

There are differences in playstyle though between the builds, which was one of the main arguments Riot had for removing the AD ratio on BB. Phreak claimed that the playstyle was the same, even though he had never tested it himself to see if it was the same. We ended up proving him wrong, but whatever. They removed it because they thought, erroneously, that it didn't promote diversity.

If BB had an AD ratio, you'd see two potential ways to play. Maxing Q first and W second, or vice versa. The first is a safer way to play, the second is a more aggressive way to play. Just depends on how YOU want to play, which is how it should be.

Optimal is fine and dandy, but it's not always fun. And if we're not having fun, why are we even playing again?


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Katarìna

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
FrozenChinchilla:
Bruiser Katarina actually works very well, but it takes away from her extremely powerful mid game presence.

You could build damage until the end of mid game and then start building pure tank, however.


Won a game yesterday with Tabi, Sunfire, Atma's, Aegis, Thormail and the beginnings of Omen.

Died six times to WW camping me top with Riven, and then came back mid/late game with 300 armor. It does work, just not as well as it could.


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Nocturnes

Senior Member

12-31-2012

Quote:
Katarìna:
It's a hard ****in road trying to open the hearts and minds of the masses to new things, but somebody has to walk that road and make the hard choice. It might as well be me.

Senselessly berating people who disagree with your subjective outlook is not the way to go about doing things.