If Riot is willing to disable items on Dominion/TT...

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bierfaust

Senior Member

12-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDawg250 View Post
I don't buy that revive has no strategy, if you just mindlessly hit revive every time it's up and you're dead you're not gonna get the best use out of it. As far as a bot laner reviving after a gank, just treat it like burning flash. Guess what he can't do it again for 9 minutes so I dunno just gank him again?
Revive is counter-strategic. It prevents any strategy on the opponents part which is stupid. If the bot laner gets ganked then he deserves to lose his tower, as the rest of his team is putting too much stock in defending the windmill and mid.

Ask any high ELO player and they will tell you revive is a necessary evil. The only reason you take it is because by not taking it you are just hamstringing yourself. Which is a stupid reason for even having a summoner spell in the first place.


I would be fine if they kept it, but made the cooldown 15 mins. That way it is essentially a one off use that could help forgive a bad mistake on your part. As opposed to completely countering good play by the other team if they gank your bot laner and his team aren't quick enough to help him or recall and send 1 person bot to cover.

It would promote a much more aggressive and rewarding play style for the game as a whole. Instead of the stupid turtle sustain fest which bot currently is.


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SlappindaBass

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Senior Member

12-24-2012

nothing wrong with smite, i think smite is overrated i try to create rune pages and masters that let me forgo smite with certain champions, and for people who say its needed for baron and dragon, tbh in my expereince it is needed about 2% of the times. i think an ignite or exhaust is far more valuable resource


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FDru

Senior Member

12-25-2012

I like how the best argument against removing revive is that everyone would just take Garrison/Exhaust. Like the fact that OP spells exist justifies the most OP spell existing. What a load of ****.

Revive is broken as hell OP in Dom, not available on Proving Ground, it's nearly useless in SR and TT and considered a troll spell if you aren't playing Shen. There is no excuse for Riot to not fix it, no reason for anybody to defend it and frankly no reason that Riot shouldn't just flat out remove it from the entire game.


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NamKim

Senior Member

12-26-2012

After thinking it about more, Revive is commonly compared to Flash. I feel that this is somewhat inaccurate comparison.

Now a days, Riot balances their champions with the idea that champions will take flash.
Don't believe? Look at the last ten champion spotlights and how many of them suggest taking flash.

Quote:
Vi - Ignite, Ghost, Flash
Nidalee - Flash, Ignite
Nami - Heal, Exhaust, Flash
Zed - Ignite, Smite, Flash
Elise - Flash, Ignite, Smite
Kha'zix - Smite, Ignite, Exhaust, Flash
Soraka - Flash, Exhaust, Heal
Syndra - Ignite, Flash
Rengar - Smite, Exhaust, Flash, Ignite
Katarina - Ignite, Flash
Champions are designed with Flash in mind. Meaning the developers know that these champions will have an ability that lets them jump around.

Revive is a get out-of-jail-free card. It doesn't bring anything new to the game, you're just coming back to life with a speed boost and health boost.

In fact, any champion who needs a "get out of jail" card is badly designed

I am also confident that RiotNome is already working on the issue with Revive. I am also confident that his solution is probably going to be very controversial, which is one of the reasons why I think it is taking a while for Dominion to get any major changes. Remember the backlash Twisted Treeline got?

Several things RiotNome probably thought about but I'm going to write them down here just in case he needs a reminder *wink *wink are
-Make Revive into a quest reward, you now need to work to get your "get out of jail cards"
-Make Revive into a one-time item, kind of like a Dominion Guardian Angel...but in consumable form.
-Make HP Boost/Speed boost be part of an item's or items' unique passive.
-Make Revive into a buff that you have to get, but it's dangerous to get it. So, if you are not careful, you might get the buff but die immediately afterwards making it completely useless. It also brings new jungle ganking potential

These are just some ideas. The idea is similar to Zhonya's Ring. It was too powerful as one item, so it was split into two still strong items. Turn Revive into something that you have to work for, has risks getting, not as powerful, and give the speed/hp boost in alternate ways.

Also, as for summoner spells in general. One developer said he even suggested to RiotNome to just give Dominion completely new summoner spells that are unique to it. He said RiotNome shot down the idea for unknown reasons.

The purpose of this post is to say Revive isn't required to make a champion viable, if it is, it is poorly designed. I also want to say that it doesn't have to be as simple as "keep Revive or remove it." Nothing is stopping RiotNome from keeping elements of Revive but turn it into something that isn't so anti-fun.

Yes, I said "anti-fun." Riot has always been about making players feel good for playing well. Morello stated that he does not like Soraka's heal, however, he is a fan of the summoner spell "heal." Soraka can just constantly heal her ally, completely undoing any mistakes the ADC might have made. This pacifies the lane and makes it boring. However, the summoner spell has a long cooldown so it cannot be spammed. Also, using it at the right moment can counter a move such as Caitlyn's ult.

So, in Dominion, if I die, I should be punished somewhat. Revive currently has no punishment for dying other than a cooldown and taking away a summoner spell. If I had to complete a quest for Revive, I risked time to get it. I am being rewarded for risking time in order to get this reward. If I bought the item, I am being punished by spending gold elsewhere that isn't my build. etc.

I will use the new Twisted Treeline as an example, the alters. The Alters offer bonuses if you can capture them. But doing so, takes time away from farming, your enemies can see you so you are now risking your own life for it, but if you do get it, your entire team benefits from it.

So, I am going to go as far to say that Revive in its current form is against Riot's game design philosophy.

[edit]
Quote:
Originally Posted by FDru View Post
I like how the best argument against removing revive is that everyone would just take Garrison/Exhaust. Like the fact that OP spells exist justifies the most OP spell existing.
If removing Revive causes everyone to take Garrison/Exhaust and this is causing problems, then that's another design flaw and should be looked at.

I know that RiotNome inherited a ton of **** when he decided to work on Dominion and Twisted Treeline. Which is probably the reason why those two maps has been ignored for too long. Every other Rioter knew how much work it would be and decided to stay away from it. To put it more bluntly, Nome actually has a pair. He doesn't have an easy job, which is why I'm very patient with RiotNome's changes. They'll come eventually but he has a ton to work on.

Ranked is different since RiotNome is not working on Ranked since it is outside his influence.


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bierfaust

Senior Member

12-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by NamKim View Post
After thinking it about more, Revive is commonly compared to Flash. I feel that this is somewhat inaccurate comparison.

Now a days, Riot balances their champions with the idea that champions will take flash.
Don't believe? Look at the last ten champion spotlights and how many of them suggest taking flash.


Champions are designed with Flash in mind. Meaning the developers know that these champions will have an ability that lets them jump around.

And this, is the biggest design flaw of all. Designing your entire game/champion lineup around 1 spell is stupid.

This is probably the single biggest reason why this game will never be balanced properly. flash is a bad mechanic, it rewards carelessness on a defensive point of view and it promotes imbalanced fights occurring that should not occur because of certain champion kits, which, would be fine if they didn't have access to flash, but they do and it makes them an issue when they shouldn't be. This prevents proper balance from occurring.

As far as everyone taking garrison/exhaust, that would make the game even more stupid than with revive. At least with revive you still have to go and fight the champion or whatever but with 5 exhausts, the game turns into who uses exhaust first and who can burst someone down first. Which is boring as hell.

Granted revive is also stupid, removing it allows people to abuse the other dominant summoner spells, which on certain champions would do even more damage to the game mode as a whole.


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konfetarius

Senior Member

12-26-2012

Quote:
Revive is counter-strategic. It prevents any strategy on the opponents part which is stupid. If the bot laner gets ganked then he deserves to lose his tower, as the rest of his team is putting too much stock in defending the windmill and mid.
The fudge? Revive is simply another layer of strategy. There is absolutely nothing "counter-strategic" about it just because it makes a specific strategy of "gank bot lane" more complex than you like.

Quote:
It would promote a much more aggressive and rewarding play style for the game as a whole. Instead of the stupid turtle sustain fest which bot currently is.
The only reason non-turtle lords are even viable bot is because of revive. On what planet is it a smart idea to take a non-squishy bot lane if you know a gank results in a near instant death, when a defensive bot lane can actually survive long enough for team to come and reinforce?


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bierfaust

Senior Member

12-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by konfetarius View Post
The fudge? Revive is simply another layer of strategy. There is absolutely nothing "counter-strategic" about it just because it makes a specific strategy of "gank bot lane" more complex than you like.


The only reason non-turtle lords are even viable bot is because of revive. On what planet is it a smart idea to take a non-squishy bot lane if you know a gank results in a near instant death, when a defensive bot lane can actually survive long enough for team to come and reinforce?
No, there is no strategy in using revive after you have been ganked to return to your lane. Nothing strategic about it. It is counter-strategic in the sense that if Team A out plays Team B by ganking their bot laner while the rest of their team distract top and prevent them from recalling, then they deserve to get the tower cap.

As it currently stands, all the person that died has to do is press 1 button and return to the tower. What is so skillful or strategic about it? Any idiot can tell the best time to use revive. Sure you can force them to blow their revive and try again, but more often then not when it comes down to the wire when that 1 gank on bot was enough to turn the tide if you have like 10 points left and it's your last shot to win, all that good teamwork done by the ganking team is completely negated by 1 spell. That is just stupid. Revive is a clutch spell, nothing more.

Why would you send a squishy bot laner down there without helping him? That's just a result of bad teamwork and communication. Yes revive allows the lesser able champions to somewhat compete with the stronger ones, but that's not a valid reason for keeping it in the game, because it just makes the champion on the other team harder to beat, even if you gank him.

If 1 spell is the only source of glue that is holding an entire game mode together then that needs to be removed and the fundamental problems addressed. like a map rework, and a lane placement/layout change.


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konfetarius

Senior Member

12-26-2012

The ganker has to account for presence of revive when ganking bot. Whenever to just kill the target and run off or commit to killing the revived target, whenever to force a revive burn by walking to enemy tower and exposing himself, etc.

The gankee to make a choice as to whenever using the revive at that specific point in time is worth it, depending on whenever his team is capable of defending it, whenever he can expect more reinforcements from the enemy team, whenever having one of his team mates defend the point will cost the team top, how hard it will be to take the point back (a function of how much damage you did before dying), etc.

There is plenty of strategy in revive because there exist choices in relation to it for both teams. Claiming otherwise is like claiming there is no strategy to using Exhaust - "LOL JUST USE EXHAUST EVERY TIME OFF COOLDOWN."

The whole "any idiot can tell the best time to use revive" is about as accurate as saying "any idiot can play AD carry." Just because the fundamentals are brick simple to imagine doesn't mean everyone executes them correctly.

The converse of the 10 point clutch revive scenario you made? The same revive not being off cooldown happens far more frequently due to all the decisions being made in that game leading up to the 10 point scenario.

Quote:
If 1 spell is the only source of glue that is holding an entire game mode together then that needs to be removed and the fundamental problems addressed. like a map rework, and a lane placement/layout change.
See Talith response on page one. There needs to be a better argument against Revive than changing things for sake of changing them. Which is what your argument comes down to once you actually examine what you are saying.

Revive does not turn bot lane into a sustain cowardfest.

Revive does not "nullify" bot ganking strategies (MMKH flowchart, much loved and reviled, has withstood the test of time for a reason).

Once those two are out of the way, what is your actual argument against revive? Rather, let me rephrase - I can see why one might want to see revive removed for simple sake of increasing variety in summoners used, but does it actually break the game mode itself enough to warrant such a drastic change?


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Samcro AUS

Junior Member

12-27-2012

I think all summoner spells should be supportive to the summoner and dont effect the enemy. heal barrier clarity cleanse revive all fine ignite is the spell i have the biggest problem with. Oh my kit just didnt kill him not to worry i have a free nuke? All summoner spells should be supportive. Smite is fine its creeps only. Ignite Exhaust should be removed maybe even flash.


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Malah

Senior Member

12-27-2012

Erm.

If you can't make a play in the ten minutes that Revive is off cooldown, there's something else wrong than a summoner spell.

Summoner spells are really damn overrated on Dominion as far as I care considering the exorbitant cooldowns more than pay for their effects - for every fight impacted by your revive there should be 9-11 in between that you don't have it for if you're not just sitting on your point/lane watching paint dry.


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