Force of Nature

First Riot Post
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AR Manimal

Senior Member

12-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post

1. You need MR - and you need it now.


However - why are you paying 1900 for an additional Null-Magic Mantle's worth of MR over Negatron Cloak? This meant that the best MR option was to go double Negatron Cloak or Aegis + Negatron Cloak. Considering that Aegis was cost-efficient by itself in terms of statistic strength and that the lone Negatron Cloak could always be upgraded to Abyssals - this meant that optimal MR was always going to include Negatron Cloak sitting in your inventory without a build.

2. You need movement speed somehow on your tank character


However, again, why are you paying 1900 for a bunch of HP/5 and Magic Resistance when you need something for *speed* in a current game. This simply impacts casters negatively - because if tanks are balanced around always having an additional 76 MR for their movement speed options - almost every source of magic damage needs to be absurd (or conversely, there cannot be other movement speed options)

Speed being attached to a primary resistance counter-item is always going to be awkward - if you need movement speed ubiquitously - unless you fight the perfect composition, you are always basically screwing yourself if this is your primary movement speed source.

3. You prize HP/5 as a statistic.


This is really where the crux of the main argument lies. If you are a player who thinks highly of HP/5 as a statistic - then Force of Nature made sense because that is the primary function Force of Nature did well - otherwise, if you were actually optimizing MR - you built twin Aegis and a Negatron Cloak (which would turn into Abyssal).

However, HP/5 is a very *poor* statistic coupled with burst mitigation and movement speed. One is a set of statistics for primary initiators - the other is a set of statistics for dedicated siegers - Force of Nature was suboptimal unless broken with additional sources of Health (such as Warmog's Armor, for example) - However, this particular pairing is (as many people have pointed out in terms of what champion they miss Force of Nature on) a dedicated Bruiser/Fighter path - one that we don't really particularly need / want to support given how durability focused those characters can get.
I bought it for all three of those stats. What now?


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

12-23-2012
8 of 41 Riot Posts

Quote:
I wonder why strength of spirit would be pushed as the gateway to a stat. I never found it very appealing when it was good, just powerful, and I'm not sure why I would enjoy myself more if it were good again.
The problem of supporting HP/5 in large quantities is that you pretty much invalidate the laning phase when HP/5 is powerful early on and you get into situations where high regeneration essentially nullifies most of the effectiveness that some characters have in the mid-game as well.

Our solution to this was to tie major sources of HP/5 to other statistics that scaled much more naturally as the game went on (Health/Mana/Level) rather than support it innately as a statistic - it hasn't really been as effective on live as it was internally.

Quote:
golem soul is a jungler only item. You want to talk about wasted stats? Golem is nothing but a lot of wasted stats.
it is as you said, a jungle item. If it had something like hp or mr instead of jungle damage and built out of ruby or negatron, It would be infinitely more useful.
Are we talking about the same Spirit of the Ancient Golem here? The thing with 500 Health?


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KgoBlocka

Member

12-23-2012

I can understand why FoN was removed, i dont like it but i understand the reasoning.
I think the big thing for me is that is that NEW sprite visage got even stronger on champs it was good on in seasons 2. but just as useless on everyone else.

Ill use wukong for example. Other team is running a double AP comp. Our jungler says that he will build bulwark. So what does that leave me?

Maw of Malmortius (terribly overpriced for the stats)
Mercurial Scimitar (just as bad as Maw cost wise)
Banshee's Veil (one of the biggest problems with this item is if you dont buy it early you lose out on the passive from catalyst)
and GA (Still not too bad mostly bought for the revive though)

Spirit Visage; CDR great. Health great."Increases healing and regeneration on yourself by 20%" Is pretty much worthless on anyone that doesnt have some sort of inate sustain, or until you pick you Warmogs or some lifesteel etc.

Lately i have just been building 2 Negatron cloaks and not upgrading them until i have 4 other completed items. You get little to no extra MR from combining them, just stats that are good on some champs and terrible on others.

The thing with FoN was it was good on all junglers, and brusers, tanks, fighters, hell i bought it on swain. Why? Because every stat it granted was good. Base HP5, %HP5, High end MR and MS.


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KgoBlocka

Member

12-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
The problem of supporting HP/5 in large quantities is that you pretty much invalidate the laning phase when HP/5 is powerful early on and you get into situations where high regeneration essentially nullifies most of the effectiveness that some characters have in the mid-game as well.

Our solution to this was to tie major sources of HP/5 to other statistics that scaled much more naturally as the game went on (Health/Mana/Level) rather than support it innately as a statistic - it hasn't really been as effective on live as it was internally.



Are we talking about the same Spirit of the Ancient Golem here? The thing with 500 Health?
So then why is Flask a ward and 5 Health Pots ok? thats 1050Hp of regen right there.


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Issyl

Senior Member

12-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
The problem of supporting HP/5 in large quantities is that you pretty much invalidate the laning phase when HP/5 is powerful early on and you get into situations where high regeneration essentially nullifies most of the effectiveness that some characters have in the mid-game as well.

Our solution to this was to tie major sources of HP/5 to other statistics that scaled much more naturally as the game went on (Health/Mana/Level) rather than support it innately as a statistic - it hasn't really been as effective on live as it was internally.



Are we talking about the same Spirit of the Ancient Golem here? The thing with 500 Health?
Xyph you didn't reply to my argument. Page 5, third to last!


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USnip

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Member

12-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
The problem of supporting HP/5 in large quantities is that you pretty much invalidate the laning phase when HP/5 is powerful early on and you get into situations where high regeneration essentially nullifies most of the effectiveness that some characters have in the mid-game as well.

Our solution to this was to tie major sources of HP/5 to other statistics that scaled much more naturally as the game went on (Health/Mana/Level) rather than support it innately as a statistic - it hasn't really been as effective on live as it was internally.
Hum, it seems like it would be better to just buff the items that scale in this way (like warmogs) if they need it rather than trying to support both that and this weird, mathy mastery.

It also seems kind of odd to promote choosing your mastery tree based mostly on this idea that you're going to scale up your late game hp regen by taking certain masteries and building mana items, while at the same time you wanted tanks to be able to pick out midrange items according to the situation as the game went on. You literally have to be angling toward a mana heavy build from champ select to take advantage of this in a way that's a serious choice, whether it's in teir 1 or 2 or what. It just seems like masteries are the wrong place to put this scaling.


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RedIsDead45

Senior Member

12-23-2012

The thing for me was the fact that you could get into a fight, lose it and still be ready for the next one if you got out alive due to the Hp5 and passive. That's what I truly miss. There is just no more itemization for Hp5 anymore, which I kinda miss a lot.


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ninjarock

Member

12-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by USnip View Post
I wonder why strength of spirit would be pushed as the gateway to a stat. I never found it very appealing when it was good, just powerful, and I'm not sure why I would enjoy myself more if it were good again.
Its also requires 12 points in the utility tree, which makes it worthless to a real tank. Support tanks like leona would grab it, but tanks don't build mana, so you'd only get 1-2 bonus hp5. Some tanks don't even use mana, so they get no benefit from this mastery. It definitely needs some changes.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

12-23-2012
9 of 41 Riot Posts

Quote:
Ill use wukong for example. Other team is running a double AP comp. Our jungler says that he will build bulwark. So what does that leave me?
Double Aegis in S2 was powerful in the same way that Double Bulwark is incredibly powerful against Double AP in S3. Both holders of the item get the effects of the aura and the base statistics.

If you and your jungle are the two-front lines against double AP - this is completely viable.

Quote:
So then why is Flask a ward and 5 Health Pots ok? thats 1050Hp of regen right there.
This is actually one of the things we're looking into right now. We're currently dissatisfied with how powerful this start is - we're watching it closely in the hopes that it isn't as effective as it is on first glance - but it's on our list of impending changes if it keeps trending towards being out of line.

Quote:
I think every stat on FoN syncs well with each other! You got the three things tanks love. MR, HP5, and movement speed to amplify their initiating ability. Movement speed to help stick on the enemy AD carry!
Let's look at why you'd want FoN:

1. I want high MR because their AP carry is doing well. Thus I want movement speed to stick onto.. the enemy AD Carry?

2. I want high HP/5 because we are sieging - so I get stronger initiation powers - but the counter to sieging *is* to have extremely powerful initiate.

3. I want movement speed to stick onto their AD carry - thus I want high.. magic resistance to counter the AD Carry's physical damage?


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RandomICE

Senior Member

12-23-2012

Hey Xyph, there has been quite a bit of discussion regarding the apparent struggle that AP mids are facing in the wake of the whole ArPen meta. The fact that Armor is now so easy to counter means that there is little reason to choose magic based casters when AD bruisers can achieve better burst, utility and survivability than AP champs can.

Do you necessarily think this is true? Because even with FoN removed and the MR options being divided. There is the sense that AP is becoming obsolete and that AD is all that is necessary to win games reliably.