Force of Nature

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Laboufe

Senior Member

12-23-2012

Wouldn't it be possible to get a new item added in with at least the same MR the FoN had.. i feel like currently all of the options give way less MR, unless i am missing something.


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JHVH

Senior Member

12-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
You typically have to balance things around their maximum abusive potential - rather than their minimum abuse potential. Which means that, for example, the Alacrity Enchantment or Swiftness upgrades can't exist in the power level that they are currently at.
CALLED IT, I CALLED IT.

i'VE ALREADY STARTED DOWNVOTED THREADS ABOUT UTILITY TREE, 4.5% MS QUINTS, ALACRITY/SWIFTNESS, ZEPHYR IRELIA

AND NOW I GOT A RED TO CONFIRM ALACRITY SWIFTNESS IS TOO STRONG
YES


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

12-23-2012
5 of 41 Riot Posts

Quote:
Wouldn't it be possible to get a new item added in with at least the same MR the FoN had.. i feel like currently all of the options give way less MR, unless i am missing something.
Probably not - this is because, as a baseline, we rescaled magic resistance to how much it should cost and we retuned gold premiums to be a more acceptable level.

Essentially, old FoN looks amazing in the context of S3 itemization mostly because every single tier 3 item in S2 looks amazing in the context of S3 itemization - it's got hugely inflated gold premiums on the final upgrade.

The high gold premiums essentially choke-out the ability for people to build reactively to their opponents unless a perfect mid-tier item existed for their particular character because any two piece item you could build was strictly gold inefficient compared to one tier 3 item. A tier 3 item gave nearly 50% additional statistic to gold ratio than a tier 2 item.

Quote:
CALLED IT, I CALLED IT.

i'VE ALREADY STARTED DOWNVOTED THREADS ABOUT UTILITY TREE, 4.5% MS QUINTS, ALACRITY/SWIFTNESS, ZEPHYR IRELIA

AND NOW I GOT A RED TO CONFIRM ALACRITY SWIFTNESS IS TOO STRONG
Runic Bulwark can't exist in the same environment as Force of Nature.

Upgraded Spirit Visage can't exist in the same environment as Force of Nature.

And yes, Swiftness or Alacrity probably can't exist in the same environment as Force of Nature.

Since each of these items are meant to synergize and provide better build options and counter-build options against certain team comps - I would say that generally, outside of late game HP/5 - I'd rather live without it than have each of these three or four other item niches be unsupported. FoN strangled itemization because it lumps so many desirable qualities into an item that is only good on a niche audience because no one audience wanted every single statistic concurrently.

By taking a step back and breaking it piecemeal into other items - we've created many more options for supports/fighters/mages in terms of their itemization as well as had the space to create other tank/initiation itemization.

I will fully admit that we've missed the *late* game health regeneration for the tank class because of vastly over-estimating the effect that Strength of Spirit would have had, as I've said before.


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Laboufe

Senior Member

12-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Probably not - this is because, as a baseline, we rescaled magic resistance to how much it should cost and we retuned gold premiums to be a more acceptable level.

Essentially, old FoN looks amazing in the context of S3 itemization mostly because every single tier 3 item in S2 looks amazing in the context of S3 itemization - it's got hugely inflated gold premiums on the final upgrade.

The high gold premiums essentially choke-out the ability for people to build reactively to their opponents unless a perfect mid-tier item existed for their particular character because any two piece item you could build was strictly gold inefficient compared to one tier 3 item. A tier 3 item gave nearly 50% additional statistic to gold ratio than a tier 2 item.
Thanks for clearing that up. i was very confused about this. On another topic, due to the excess of wards now because of the oracle nerf, would you consider perhaps adding an item with an active ability that makes you invisible to wards for 5 seconds or something? i think it could be a neat idea for junglers.


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Fjyrin

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Senior Member

12-23-2012

Xyph, I think one of the big objections to FoN's removal that's kind of being brushed aside is its MR slot efficiency. The other stats were useful too, but FoN was the only place you could get that much MR in one slot. It may not have been the most cost efficient for the "need MR now" path, but later in the game when you could only fill up one more slot, it was the MR item for tanky champs to get. It just feels like in the really late stages of the game when everyone has full builds, tanks aren't as relevant anymore because at the same time AP carries got all the help with magic pen and %burn, it became harder to itemize for lategame MR.

It's just unsatisfying for tanks because while the slot limitations of itemization for AP carries were set higher, the slot limitations for tanky builds were set lower all across the board and it's much harder for us tanks to fulfill our role. Is this an intended consequence of the new itemization? Is it too much?


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Zoram

Senior Member

12-23-2012

Xyp I totally agree with why FON was removed and had its stats redistributed(except hp regen is sort of a tricky beast I must admit).

But we just want to know if we can get a high MR item again. Right now its pretty much 50MR on any single MR item max. MR prices got buffed, Mpen and ARpen got changed in a way that buffs it(that is why rune stats were altered for these things) so in the end mages come out stronger. Mr is still kind of tough to get.

An MR item that gives more flat MR would be really nice, because right now I feel like if I need MR, I am unable to feel like I am building for it.

Banshee's is good people with needing CC/burst protection
Qss is good for countering initiations or vital times in fights, this could potentially be a base for a stronger dedicated MR item. It was nerfed long ago pretty hard and again in the s3 sweep. It currently feels like an item that should build into other things(like scimitar) and maybe something else?

Bulwark is good, but more often than not, when I upgrade it I think of the huge boost to HP over MR. If I don't want the HP but I want MR, I'd probably opt for building another straight up MR heavy item via negatron.

Spirit visage got a buff, and I can't complain there. Its a good choice many times, but again it can be expensive if all you want is the MR stat, and often times its passive isn't viable for the champion you are using, and like aegis if you don't want the HP it feels worse.

I feel the OP, I feel that there is a hole now, and it is really tough to get the MR you want late game.


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ninjarock

Member

12-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
No, it doesn't - not when one of the primary statistic is a stat that is valued across *all* characters (movement speed).

When an item favors a particular character in a class but also contains a ubiquitous statistic that no characters in that class can easily itemize for - you create odd swings where some characters are simply faster for no reason other than the item is awkwardly statted for other characters.

If you look at the current movement speed options (Shadows / Alacrity / Swiftness / Mobility) - they are ubiquitous and universal enough to be applied across most tanks - and that most tanks have at least one option they can choose to opt into high movement speed.
Although this isn't usually enough because many attack speed items increase movement speed, and tanks base speed is lower than most other champions already. So not only does an adc get the same movement bonus from upgraded boots, they also get speed boosts from items, and start out faster than tanks. On top of that, most adc have a movement skill. Some adc build trinity, so they have a slow, while some adc have an inherent slowing ability. So even slowing the adc isn't effective, as the tank will also be slowed. Merc. treads and masteries are sometimes not enough. With shurelya nerfed tanks can't even have a decent situational speed boost.

It was a good idea to have an expensive speed boosting defensive item, because then tanks aren't ALWAYS faster than the enemy, but if they have rediculously fast enemies who they cannot ever catch, they can itemize for it and stand a chance. Otherwise they just get kited to death, or are completely ineffective in fights. No tank is going to buy a PD or statikk shyv to compensate for a lack of speed against rediculously mobile ranged enemies.


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Issyl

Senior Member

12-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post



This is *exactly* the problem with FoN. Generally, you will find many camps on FoN, each of which doesn't care about 1 out of the 3 statistics on the item.
What do you mean we don't care about that stat?
Shyvana - Typical build consists of Frozen Mallet and Wit's end for perma slow. Along with FoN she gets tankier and becomes a better chaser applying the Mallet slow! A tank like that loves every single stat on Force of Nature!

Hecarim - Again, he gets tankier, has increased health regen to stick around tower sieges or team fights longer. And the movement speed bonus tops it all of too good on him! He gets faster and gets a little bit of AD. No bad stat there!

I think every stat on FoN syncs well with each other! You got the three things tanks love. MR, HP5, and movement speed to amplify their initiating ability. Movement speed to help stick on the enemy AD carry!


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Hemp Plants

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Senior Member

12-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yx View Post
I don't know why this item was removed. As far as I'm concerned, it was the only item I ever built for MR. Now, I'm torn between something that gives you Mana + HP, and something that gives you Attack Damage.

FoN was a solid MR item that scaled great with all tanks. I struggle even building MR anymore because I feel like there's more important things to get rather than Banshee's or Scimitar.

If anyone has any tips on what they build for MR in S3, they'd greatly be appreciated, because right now, I'm having a hard time playing any tanks against heavy AP teams.

Tl;dr: Bring back FoN or a substitute. Tell me what you build for MR.

Edit: Downvotes for sharing an opinion and asking a question... GD is so kind.
unfortunately i have to go with abyss scepter,spirit visage/tenacity boots


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Ralfazar

Senior Member

12-23-2012

Whenever I play my Cho and I click on the 'Magic Resist' defense tab all I see is disappointment at the trash items I have available other then the thankfully NOT removed abyssal sceptre, none of the new items really scream all that useful as the FoN was, I don't think any player in the world cared about the supposed 'confusing meshed stats' they were stats that were useful period, but that's apparently a bad thing now to riot.

Honestly going by the reasons given for FoNs removal I'm surprised Frozen Heart is still in the game, it has quite a few 'confusing' stats as well all on a decent armor item.