Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

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Montoli

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Senior Member

11-29-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by SelimBradley View Post
I'm just arguing semantics here, but I rue the day anyone sees someone playing Other M and thinks, "Wow, that guy's a hardcore gamer!" I'm walking a fine line between debate and masturbation, but "hardcore" games are those that cruelly punish mistakes. Metroid? Hell no. Ninja Gaiden Black? Sure. Bayonetta? Not at all. Hardcore games tend to be dominated by roguelikes, shmups (Link), Japanese rhythm games (Link), and probably fighting games.

Generally a "hardcore gamer" strives for perfection, and games that force him to that end.
+1 just for the Subterranean animism link. Actually read your forum post immediately after [yet another] attempt at the EX level.


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Trame

Senior Member

11-29-2010

PS Zilean I don't think you ever addressed this. You said earlier that getting stunlocked in Force Unleashed was idiotic, using it as an example for something to avoid, but what about getting stunlocked in League of Legends? Stuns last so absurdly long relative to how long it takes to kill most characters that if you pick a CC/stun team you can easily stun and kill from full anyone on the other team with just a couple of people. This is easier if coupled with people who can disrupt the enemy team and make it so they can't get help the guy who got 1cm out of position, say with Janna or Veigar, who can easily block the enemy team from helping until it's already too late.

These aren't typically the best comps, which is why no one's running them (the closest thing is combining AoE stuns and AoE damage, not just "everyone bring a stun"), but when you do play against a team like this it's still incredibly frustrating and boring to every single time you get anywhere near the enemy team get stunned by a ton of people and nuked to death such that there's literally nothing you can do between the time the first attack lands and your death. Worse in normal games since you can't counterpick or know to take cleanse (which usually won't save you anyway).

Why is Riot so opposed to diminishing returns on CC? Kennen has it and Kennen stuns aren't even as long as some of the others in the game. I think Shurelia said it's because you guys want people to know exactly how long their spells last, but in some situations in can be so OP and frustrating to the target that I don't see the point here. If it was implemented, it's not like the TF who threw his gold card timed immediately after Annie's stun wore off which itself was timed to land right after Rammus's taunt ended which was timed for right when Morgana's snare ended somehow wouldn't be aware that the result would be his stun lasting virtually no time at all since it's the 4th stun in a row, considering these things are obviously planned out ahead of time, either through explicit teamwork or through each person independently waiting for a stun to wear off just so they can keep the same person locked and helpless for like 10 seconds.


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Trame

Senior Member

11-29-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by SelimBradley View Post
"hardcore" games are those that cruelly punish mistakes. Metroid? Hell no.
For the rest of the series okay but have you ever played the original Metroid


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Lightstriker

Adjudicator

11-29-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by SelimBradley View Post
I'm just arguing semantics here, but I rue the day anyone sees someone playing Other M and thinks, "Wow, that guy's a hardcore gamer!" I'm walking a fine line between debate and masturbation, but "hardcore" games are those that cruelly punish mistakes. Metroid? Hell no. Ninja Gaiden Black? Sure. Bayonetta? Not at all. Hardcore games tend to be dominated by roguelikes, shmups (Link), Japanese rhythm games (Link), and probably fighting games.

Generally a "hardcore gamer" strives for perfection, and games that force him to that end.
There are multiple definitions of hardcore. To the gaming community, the definition of hardore is EXTREMELY different then it is from the general population. Zilean is using the definition that is far, far more relevant to a companies profits then the other.


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WhattayaBrian

Engineer

11-29-2010
147 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montoli View Post
+1 just for the Subterranean animism link. Actually read your forum post immediately after [yet another] attempt at the EX level.
SA's EX is the only one I haven't beaten. I don't know why SA is so hard for me. It's also the only one whose Hard I haven't beaten it, whereas I beat UFO's Hard fairly soon after release. I just wish Sanae wasn't so **** hard for an EX midboss (probably the hardest).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Trame View Post
For the rest of the series okay but have you ever played the original Metroid
Point. I was pretty much counting everything Super Metroid and later, which are all easymode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightstriker View Post
There are multiple definitions of hardcore. To the gaming community, the definition of hardore is EXTREMELY different then it is from the general population. Zilean is using the definition that is far, far more relevant to a companies profits then the other.
I disagree. What they internally call their target demographic has nothing to do with sales. Demon's Souls, for example, is a recent game that was created for the "hardcore" gamer. I think it's a terrible game, personally, but its lack of checkpoints and possibility of losing all your souls upon death make it hardcore. Some people look at the idea of having to play through the same part of the game over and over and think it's just bad design; that's not the target audience for DS. And, you know what? DS did very well for itself, proving that hardcore games can sell in today's market.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

11-29-2010
148 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by SelimBradley View Post
I'm just arguing semantics here, but I rue the day anyone sees someone playing Other M and thinks, "Wow, that guy's a hardcore gamer!" I'm walking a fine line between debate and masturbation, but "hardcore" games are those that cruelly punish mistakes. Metroid? Hell no. Ninja Gaiden Black? Sure. Bayonetta? Not at all. Hardcore games tend to be dominated by roguelikes, shmups (Link), Japanese rhythm games (Link), and probably fighting games.

Generally a "hardcore gamer" strives for perfection, and games that force him to that end.
W/ regards to stuff like Ninja Gaiden, I define that as masochistic, not a hardcore. I don't like that stuff _personally_ (e.g. not as a designer) for example, and I think it's hard to argue that I'm anything other than a hardcore gamer.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

11-29-2010
149 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trame View Post
PS Zilean I don't think you ever addressed this. You said earlier that getting stunlocked in Force Unleashed was idiotic, using it as an example for something to avoid, but what about getting stunlocked in League of Legends? Stuns last so absurdly long relative to how long it takes to kill most characters that if you pick a CC/stun team you can easily stun and kill from full anyone on the other team with just a couple of people. This is easier if coupled with people who can disrupt the enemy team and make it so they can't get help the guy who got 1cm out of position, say with Janna or Veigar, who can easily block the enemy team from helping until it's already too late.
It usually ends up not being a problem, but is in a few cases. Some of this is also late game DPS proliferation.

Quote:
These aren't typically the best comps, which is why no one's running them (the closest thing is combining AoE stuns and AoE damage, not just "everyone bring a stun"), but when you do play against a team like this it's still incredibly frustrating and boring to every single time you get anywhere near the enemy team get stunned by a ton of people and nuked to death such that there's literally nothing you can do between the time the first attack lands and your death. Worse in normal games since you can't counterpick or know to take cleanse (which usually won't save you anyway).
Yeah, which is why we are nerfing AE stuns every patch. Chained single target stuns come at the cost of overkilling one target, and aren't that bad honestly.

Quote:
Why is Riot so opposed to diminishing returns on CC? Kennen has it and Kennen stuns aren't even as long as some of the others in the game. I think Shurelia said it's because you guys want people to know exactly how long their spells last, but in some situations in can be so OP and frustrating to the target that I don't see the point here. If it was implemented, it's not like the TF who threw his gold card timed immediately after Annie's stun wore off which itself was timed to land right after Rammus's taunt ended which was timed for right when Morgana's snare ended somehow wouldn't be aware that the result would be his stun lasting virtually no time at all since it's the 4th stun in a row, considering these things are obviously planned out ahead of time, either through explicit teamwork or through each person independently waiting for a stun to wear off just so they can keep the same person locked and helpless for like 10 seconds.
[/quote]
Because it's really unsatisfying to have your slow hit and be 1/3 duration. Same reason we want to redo how reduced CC duration stacks on chars like mundo with merc treads.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

11-29-2010
150 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by SelimBradley View Post
Point. I was pretty much counting everything Super Metroid and later, which are all easymode.
Yes, they are easy, but they are on the easy side of 'hardcore' games. The typical person who plays farmville is not likely the person who plays metroid. Gamers play metroid. They just may be less massochistic than the guy who plays Ninja Gaiden.

Quote:
I disagree. What they internally call their target demographic has nothing to do with sales. Demon's Souls, for example, is a recent game that was created for the "hardcore" gamer. I think it's a terrible game, personally, but its lack of checkpoints and possibility of losing all your souls upon death make it hardcore. Some people look at the idea of having to play through the same part of the game over and over and think it's just bad design; that's not the target audience for DS. And, you know what? DS did very well for itself, proving that hardcore games can sell in today's market.
Yep, in many cases, bad design is just bad design. You can have an easy to learn game that is hardcore. That's what we've sought to do with league of legends. To some extent we have succeeded. In other cases, it's still too hard to learn for people unfamiliar with the concept.


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Nyanpaia

Adjudicator

11-29-2010

Armored bear with rupture = totally ruin LoL


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WhattayaBrian

Engineer

11-29-2010
151 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
W/ regards to stuff like Ninja Gaiden, I define that as masochistic, not a hardcore. I don't like that stuff _personally_ (e.g. not as a designer) for example, and I think it's hard to argue that I'm anything other than a hardcore gamer.
"Masochistic" implies that a gamer of that type likes to lose. I think that's a common misconception. It's further propagated when someone says "I like game X because you can actually game over." "Masochistic" gamers, in your words, like the ability to be punished because it makes the eventual, hard-earned success that much more important. You've actually achieved something. They don't actually like losing; it just whets their appetite for winning.

It's why one-sided stomps in LoL aren't fun at all. I like outplaying my opponent, not winning because they're just bad.