Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

First Riot Post
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Zileas

VP of Game Design

11-29-2010
143 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by serverny View Post
And EA releases so many hardcore games lately... All major labels like EA, Activision-Blizzard go more and more after not only casuals, but "ages from 8 to 80 with 30 spare minutes to spend".

They do not care about giving players a challenge, they give players cheap and fast entertainment for masses.
You follow the same pattern, with this fear of challenge and higher skill-cap and a bit of "burden of knowledge".

Sure it will make you money, sure it will look good on big screens for WCG, but i'm afraid level of competitive play in LOL will be a laughing stock of all competitive community in 1-2 years, if you continue to move in this direction.

P.S. And don't let me get started with how badly Zileas fails when he compares MOBA to RTS saying "Starcraft is simple mechanically, yet has great depth". This comparison fails on so many levels its completely invalid...

TL;DR : You give players challenge, or your game slowly faids away from competitive area, no matter how much $$$ you award at your tournaments.
The reason this is occurring is that companies need to chase growth to continue being relevant. Right now, there is a lot of growth in social, so companies are investing a lot into it. But the core game companies still depend upon their core franchises, as always... and a lot of those are very hardcore.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

11-29-2010
144 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by inFe eD View Post
Thanks for the post Zileas, it really clarifies for me why the skill cap in LoL is so low. I guess the priority has always been on the casual experience over the competitive scene, hence why balance is never a top priority, why knee-jerk "fixes" like Leblanc getting insta-nerfed due to low-elo complaints happen, and why left-field changes like Zilean's ult getting toned down are implemented. Pandering to the lowest common denominator just insults players who are willing to invest time and effort into mastering the game's mechanics.
LOL, Zilean is still borderline OP in the hands of an expert, and LeBlanc was burst killing people pretty well in high elo before the nerfs, within 3 games, I was reliably going 5:1 KD ratios in 2000 rated normal matches without any difficulty for example. Both of those changes were related to advanced player feedback and situations, not newb complaints... The forum consensus on LeBlanc when we nerfed her was that she was "ok". No one was complaining about Zilean. We often make these actions when we know there to be a problem before everyone has been beaten up a ton by it.


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Lenowill

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Member

11-29-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas
LOL, Zilean is still borderline OP in the hands of an expert
Amen. I haven't seen him hurt terribly by anything that's been done to him so far. Double haste/slow, the bombs, and his ult are still absolutely killer for their overall utility and the way they can provide multiple ways of cheating death in teamfights (while ensuring death for enemies).

Thank you for the insightful design post, Zileas. It was very thought-provoking to read. One of my dreams in life is to write the script for a tactical RPG for the PC or a console, and one of my other dreams is game design. So you've given me a lot of food for thought.


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Raidenwing

Member

11-29-2010

so if you admit tryndamere's abilities have flaws, "There are other examples of non-reliability, but randomness is the most obvious one. Abilities that require peculiar situations to do their jobs tend to run into the same problems, such as Tryndamere's shout that only slows when targets are facing away from him." why have we not seen a fix to it yet.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

11-29-2010
145 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raidenwing View Post
so if you admit tryndamere's abilities have flaws, "There are other examples of non-reliability, but randomness is the most obvious one. Abilities that require peculiar situations to do their jobs tend to run into the same problems, such as Tryndamere's shout that only slows when targets are facing away from him." why have we not seen a fix to it yet.
Because we have finite resources.

pseudorandom crit/dodge comes in a patch or two or three though and that will address much of the issue.


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Audhulma

Senior Member

11-29-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raidenwing View Post
so if you admit tryndamere's abilities have flaws, "There are other examples of non-reliability, but randomness is the most obvious one. Abilities that require peculiar situations to do their jobs tend to run into the same problems, such as Tryndamere's shout that only slows when targets are facing away from him." why have we not seen a fix to it yet.
Cause tryndamere has already been put on a list by guinsoo with an upcoming "rework". Not that I personally feel tryndamere should be changed a bit, if you allow the guy to farm that much you deserve to friggin die.

Edit: forgot to mention as a general comment, LoL was designed to appeal to casual players... I'm not gonna say F the competitive players, but they need to get over the fact that this game isnt tailored to their every whim.


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Kevinblaze

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Senior Member

11-29-2010

This is always a satisfying thread to catch up on. Thanks all!


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CounterCraft

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Senior Member

11-29-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
LOL, Zilean is still borderline OP in the hands of an expert, and LeBlanc was burst killing people pretty well in high elo before the nerfs, within 3 games, I was reliably going 5:1 KD ratios in 2000 rated normal matches without any difficulty for example. Both of those changes were related to advanced player feedback and situations, not newb complaints... The forum consensus on LeBlanc when we nerfed her was that she was "ok". No one was complaining about Zilean. We often make these actions when we know there to be a problem before everyone has been beaten up a ton by it.
Pretty sure Serif 3 shotting twitch in mid and tower diving without taking any damage made you guys reconsider LeBlanc numbers...

Also, http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...78#post4383078
I'm waiting for your next TF lore bro.


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Trame

Senior Member

11-29-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
We often make these actions when we know there to be a problem before everyone has been beaten up a ton by it.
For people who don't understand this: consider Vlad, where this didn't happen.

First two, maybe three days, everyone was saying Vlad was terrible. "Vlad is bad" practically became a forum catchphrase. The people who understood how to use him were wrecking, but most people assumed he was bad or balanced at best, and dismissed the far and few between complaints as "low elo QQ."

It took like a week for the forum as a whole to realize how insane he was (ridiculous long-range instant cast low-CD no cost nuke for ridiculous kiting that also healed him, and something like 8-out-of-10-seconds invulnerability with pool->Zhonya's->pool). It took even longer for people to then realize he wasn't OP until level 9 or so when Q's cooldown became 3s. The main problem areas (pool duration and Q range) got nerfed and he's still so strong he's getting minor nerfs here and there.

LeBlanc was flat out overpowered and while I think she got nerfed too hard (I haven't seen a good LeBlanc since) I'd rather that then another two weeks of crazy imbalance like Xin or to a much lesser extent (since people were dumb and didn't know how to play him for most of that) Vlad. As soon as LeBlanc hit 6, if you were a melee character not only were you being zoned out like mad, she could Q->R you for 1/4th to 1/2th of your health depending on squishiness while you were standing behind your tower, without tower shooting her before she dashed away. This cost something like 1/10th of her mana pool and she'd be able to do it again in 30 seconds. This wasn't just "this character is good at zoning," it was "if your character isn't one of the strongest laners in the game you essentially can't stay in the same lane with her even behind your tower without dying." The problem areas (Q's range, Q->R damage, R CD and negligible mana costs) all got nerfed.

Again the nerfs seemingly went too far but for people who are still complaining about that and don't realize that without any nerfs it would have taken roughly 48 hours for the rest of the forum to catch on to what the good players were doing, realize she was overpowered and building/skilling her to exploit that, and we'd then have to put up with that for 10 days before any sort of balance came in a patch: it's probably a good thing you're not a videogame designer.

And yeah just because nobody played Zil doesn't mean his ult's cooldown wasn't tiny for such a powerful support skill (one of the best in the game). If you never played against a good Zil on a good push or poke team, the cooldown with rewind was so short they could dive almost without fear of anyone dying basically whenever they felt like it.


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WhattayaBrian

Engineer

11-29-2010
146 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
A "casual" league of legends player probably has played WoW and would be playing the latest Metroid or Call of Duty or whatever if they weren't playing LoL. Most people would call that a hardcore or mid-core gamer.
I'm just arguing semantics here, but I rue the day anyone sees someone playing Other M and thinks, "Wow, that guy's a hardcore gamer!" I'm walking a fine line between debate and masturbation, but "hardcore" games are those that cruelly punish mistakes. Metroid? Hell no. Ninja Gaiden Black? Sure. Bayonetta? Not at all. Hardcore games tend to be dominated by roguelikes, shmups (Link), Japanese rhythm games (Link), and probably fighting games.

Generally a "hardcore gamer" strives for perfection, and games that force him to that end.