Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

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WavesBlade

Senior Member

11-27-2010

Getting spinned to, chickened and critted continuously for about half your health or so when tryn is solo lane is such fun.

-_-


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N1ghtmareXZ

Junior Member

11-27-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indexus View Post
Seriously, you think Starcraft has any strategical depth ? It does have it, but not much at all. Dota, with balanced gameplay, would have twice (if not more) strategical gameplay. Still I won't agure about complexity of spells - it's bad, but dumbing them down for the sake of it is just wrong.

"SATISFYING experience" != Fun. Fun is really biased thing - People are satisfied, because they win a game, they don't need fun with it. Others find it fun, when they built AP Olaf and stomped the game, while others want to score billions of kills.
There are even weirdos, who enjoy an even, balanced game, but MM can't provide it.

Building a satisfying game isn't exacly the same as a fun game.
Wait, did you just say starcraft as half or less the strategic depth of a game like dota? Really? Maybe dota might just edge out starcraft but DOUBLE!!!!

I mean if you play zerg in starcraft you, just because of the mechanics of the race to play them well you have to know when it is ok to make drones and when its not and you should make units to defend. You have to know exactly how many units they have how many uits you will need and enough drones you can make without those lack of fighting units lose you the game. Then you move on and say alright now that I know I can make drones without dying how many do I need to make X thing. For example I need 5 drones on minerals and 3 on gas to produce mutalisks from one hatchery constantly. I know that number off the top of my head, why? Because it increases the chance of me winning because I'm not wasting lava on drones that I don't need. All thats only ONE facet of ONE races macro. Or for things like muta harrass. It creates an issue for the enemy player, do I go out and be agressive and let these mutas destroy all of my workers so that either this attack works or I lose. So how is the zerg controlling the game? By just not needing to fight the nemy head on with there weaker army and stalling them which lets themselves get the economy to get to the later game and actually fight off the other army in a direct confrontation. I could easily go on and on and on about strategic depth in starcaft but I'm not going too unless I have to do so. Theres so many subtle things in starcraft which on top of the obvious thngs, it would take way too long for me to actually mention all of them. It seems to me either you've never actually seen good starcraft players play the game or you (or maybe I) have no idea what is being talked about.

Keep in mind all this relates to starcaft brood war and not starcraft II.

Also to the post on the previous page about starcraft has it all spot-on, so quite simply starcraft is a game with a lot of strategic depth but it is also really really really complicated.

N1ghtmareXZ


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Letkhar

Senior Member

11-27-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadi View Post
Have you.. Played starcraft?

We are talking about a game where it is fundamental to know the common timed pushes of your opponents. When it is important to remember every feature of the map to know which ones can be exploited. When you need to be able to deduce opponent's build order by seeing how much gas is missing from their geysir.

We are talking about the game that has one of the highest learning curves of all time. If anything, Starcraft has ridiculously high burden of knowledge attached. You need to have knowledge on how to counter cannon rushes on map X, and you also need to know when not to counter them and just give up your hatchery. If you react twenty seconds too slow, you lose. If you react wrong, you lose. And no, you don't know what your opponent is doing. You know he built gas before his rax. And you need to be able to know what builds do that and deduce what he is doing.

And then you need to know the timing when he pushes out, and the ground distance on that map, and you need to time your defense perfectly, or you will be economically behind and lose.

Not only that, but in tournaments, seeing your opponent's name you should already be able to tell what kind of strategies they favour and how consistent they are. What time do they like to scout and how confident are they in their basic build orders. How likely are they to cheese, and if they are, on which game of the sequence?

No, after that comment I really do not believe you have ever played starcraft.
Total Annihilation has a steeper learning curve than Starcraft. So does AoE 2. (Oh GOD the learning curve of AoE 2...)

Honestly, Starcraft is pretty overrated. It just gets more attention because it's so accessible and, really, simple. Which is why you're even aware of what the professionals have to pay attention to.


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N1ghtmareXZ

Junior Member

11-27-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Letkhar View Post
Supreme Commander has a steeper learning curve than Starcraft.
Uhhhhhhh soooooooooo what does that have to got to do with anything?


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WhattayaBrian

Engineer

11-27-2010
138 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Letkhar View Post
Supreme Commander has a steeper learning curve than Starcraft.
Considering Supcom goes out of its way to force you to not micro, I disagree.


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banthor11

Senior Member

11-27-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Yeah so... When someone is winning, and their opponent CANT stop them, it feels frustrating and lame... because you can't do anything ;p But when someone is winning and COULD lose it's not so bad. I still think that with snowball items, this is the case.

Secondly, anyone who plays a lot of First Person Shooters knows that the FPS matches you remember are the ones where you went 20-2, not the ones you went 0-20. High points of immense emotional satisfaction make the game more fun than the low points diminish your fun -- as long as you arent in the low points consecutively a lot. That's a lot of the theory behind the snowball items. Plus, someone who goes 20-2 isn't necessarily winning, they are just feeling good about their performance.
Interesting... I guess I can understand some of you points. As for FPS references it depends a lot on your perspective. The guy who gets 0-20 might still be contributing to his team but the guy who went 20-2 is preventing members of the enemy team from effectively contributing.

For me, snowball items are comparable to some of the times my friends accidentally left killstreak bonuses activated in hardcore mode in CoD World at War. Someone would get a lucky kill streak early, send out dogs, getting more kill streak bonuses. This would build to a point that whoever did it first got a massive lead, that was difficult to recover and catch up from.

The point being, even though you can recover from a snowball, the damage has been done and the opposing has been given a significant lead because of it.

I understand where you coming from, but I guess we'll just have to disagree where snowball items sit on the design spectrum.


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Letkhar

Senior Member

11-27-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by SelimBradley View Post
Considering Supcom goes out of its way to force you to not micro, I disagree.
Ack, meant Total Annihilation...>.<

I was trying to talk about semi-conemporaries.


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N1ghtmareXZ

Junior Member

11-27-2010

Regardless what I think Zileas is trying to say is that starcraft is a complicated system running on relatively simple concept. So that you can play the game and enjoy it at all levels of play, so basically it gives strategic depth without it necessarily needing that extreme depth to enjoy the game??

Thats what I think is going on...


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Pureva

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-27-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadi View Post
Have you.. Played starcraft?

We are talking about a game where it is fundamental to know the common timed pushes of your opponents. When it is important to remember every feature of the map to know which ones can be exploited. When you need to be able to deduce opponent's build order by seeing how much gas is missing from their geysir.

We are talking about the game that has one of the highest learning curves of all time. If anything, Starcraft has ridiculously high burden of knowledge attached. You need to have knowledge on how to counter cannon rushes on map X, and you also need to know when not to counter them and just give up your hatchery. If you react twenty seconds too slow, you lose. If you react wrong, you lose. And no, you don't know what your opponent is doing. You know he built gas before his rax. And you need to be able to know what builds do that and deduce what he is doing.

And then you need to know the timing when he pushes out, and the ground distance on that map, and you need to time your defense perfectly, or you will be economically behind and lose.

Not only that, but in tournaments, seeing your opponent's name you should already be able to tell what kind of strategies they favour and how consistent they are. What time do they like to scout and how confident are they in their basic build orders. How likely are they to cheese, and if they are, on which game of the sequence?

No, after that comment I really do not believe you have ever played starcraft.
"...simple to learn, hard to master mechanics, as starcraft accomplished, and make the game way more accessible."

I think Zileas has a pretty good argument that the techniques you're talking about are "simple to learn, hard to master." There's nothing particularly complicated about memorizing timetables.


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N1ghtmareXZ

Junior Member

11-27-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pureva View Post
"...simple to learn, hard to master mechanics, as starcraft accomplished, and make the game way more accessible."

I think Zileas has a pretty good argument that the techniques you're talking about are "simple to learn, hard to master." There's nothing particularly complicated about memorizing timetables.
Thats what I'm seeing from what he is saying too except maybe the timetables bit