Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

First Riot Post
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Kyree

Senior Member

10-16-2010

Nice post

But i feel LoL has lot of this issues, so if u know, why u dont repair?

For example, amumu and galio has prolly the most unfun abilities, sure is fun for amumu and galio, but its really antifun for the other team be perma stun/silenced and then dead without have the posibility to counter it, this 2 ultimates creates lot of fustration in lot of ranges of players, and it accentuates in non ranked games where u can't see your opponents pick to counter it. For experience in 80% of cases u cant counter this 2 abilities os it requieres have lot of variables like, you have to see what enemy picks, you have to pick right summoner spells, you have to pick right items, and you have to be an organized team with map control and prey the galio or amumu enemy is bad. So you need to have many variables that not depend on you for that game not be unfun wich 80% of time is not the case. Really i remember even cases than after pick and my team mates saw on the screen galio and amumu they just disconected, cos they knew that game wouldnt be fun.

Another pattern that Riot dont follows is the balance survival/damage, the basic design of mmso that people knows and works is damage dealers= lot of damage - low survival tanks= lot of survival - low damage, supports no damge- very very high survival. This is the basis, but time to time in LoL are released heros with lot of survival and lot of damage, that means tanks that can carry, damage dealers that scapes all the time, and supports that makes invencible teams, This is the cause of more unblances in LoL wich creates fustration to players, just to put some examples, galio, amumu, mordekaiser.. people thinks ok they are tanks, they have high survival, lets not target them, but what creates fustration is that u also cant ignore them cos not only they can prevent u from killing their carry, they also can kill you.. another example.. old ezrael, vladimir, people thinks they are the carrys but when u go to kil lthem and focus the, they just can scape and return wich creates fustration, cos the player couldnt kill them even if they did a good focus, while they are being killed by tht rest of the enemy team.

And to finish, onother of the problems that creates lot of fustration to players and the reason why all the time you see posts about they are Op is the supports, is not the fact they are op (they aren't), is the fact that lot of times players goes to kill someone, and when is about to be killed, the support heals and he dont kill, plus he is been killed, automatically the players thinks, omg suports are op, they make me not able to kill the enemy,and in a pvp game where the fun is kill this enters in conflict.


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Knote

Senior Member

10-16-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Takkles View Post
Well, this post showed us exactly why the skill cap in this game is so low compared to DotA/HoN. It also showed why this game will not surpass its competitors in the e-sport scene. Luckily for Riot(well, it's not luck, they earned it all and they'll get even better), they're very successful and they have a great game. So I don't think they're worried about failing in the e-sport scene, which is fine and just the way I like it(play this game when I don't feel like tryharding, play other games[HoN] for the competitive aspect).
Great post. I agree 1000%.

I'll be totally honest, there are VERY FEW champions that actually entertain me and keep me playing (Luxanna hopefully will be another one).

Nidalee, Anivia, Ezreal. Even then it's just about skillshots. It will be interesting to see how LoL comes along competitively though.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

10-16-2010
68 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raptamei View Post
For instance, the original Torment you removed could be implemented as a cloud of gas around the target, call it "Flammable Vapors". Hitting the target with attacks would cause small explosions and a fire that grows bigger the more damage the target takes. This would communicate easily that the target is taking more dps and why.

If fire doesn't suit Swain, try placing an ice crystal above the target's head, and the more damage he takes the more splintered and sharper the crystal becomes and blood spurts start flying off.

Or whenever the target gets hit, a ghost sword graphic would pop up and attack the target for the duration of the curse. It should be obvious what the connection is between getting attacked, spawning swords that attack you, and taking more damage.



Call it "Curse of Caltrops" and make a large spike shoot up from the ground every time the target takes a step. They'll figure it out soon enough.
Yes, but that's the whole point. If you communicate what is going on properly, then you have less burden of knowledge problems.

Quote:
[*]That primordial burst does extra damage based on your AP?
Does not change how you react generally.

Quote:
[*]That AoE can hit a falling Pantheon?
Not a huge deal, and actually a bug.

Quote:
[*]Which abilities are physical damage and which are magic? (Throwing a knife for no mana = magic damage?)
It's in death recap

Quote:
[*]What will happen when you cast spell X at a veil or black shield?
Ones with substantial effect interact -- the rule are somewhat consistent

Quote:
[*]That crystal arrow has a shorter stun duration and Nid's spear does less damage at point blank range?
Does not change counter gameplay. You want to not get hit no matter the range. And it's easier to dodge at longer range. Therefore, very little burden of knowledge.

Quote:
[*]That Shaco does more damage if he hits you in the back?
Generally not that key because if your back is turned you are running anyway. You don't respond differently even when you do know this, other than maybe fighting to the death a bit more.


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SuzumeStjohn

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-16-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Yes, but that's the whole point. If you communicate what is going on properly, then you have less burden of knowledge problems..
So it was removed because you couldn't get the graphics right? Is that how we are reading this?


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

10-16-2010
69 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindeh View Post
I think the changes to the talent trees are sort of a step back towards the way Blizzard is use to designing things (edit: to clarify I think this is a good thing). Over the years WoW has been bogged down with a lot of unnecessary complexity. The talent trees were a shining example of this. So many talents were not a "choice" at all. If you wanted to be competitive in PvP or go far in the end-game PvE you -had- to have a lot of those talents. More choices doesn't always mean more depth, the choices have to be balanced and meaningful. All the bloated talent trees did was punish players who didn't do their research outside of the game. Any game that requires you to go outside the "walls" of the game to find out how to play is poorly designed (look at how well FFXIV is doing >_> *cough 4.0 cough*).

However I still don't think WoW is there quite yet, some talents in the new trees are still "essential" and people will be obligated to take as is. I'm also not a fan of having to have one tree to 31 before you can go into another. Seems a step back from the idea of the new system to take that choice from players away.

I know you asked for a designer's opinion but I wanted to chime in with my two cents!

I generally agree. I like how 90% of it is looking. Then there is stuff like Chakra on the priest and maybe the way the soul enhancement skill on the warlock is. I mean, mechanically if you really understand, maybe it's OK. But Chakra especially, in my opinion, is overly complex design. Poorly written tooltip, too much going on, unclear purpose. Much better to build it around a new class mechanic set if you believe it in, rather than kludging it in the talent tree. All I'm saying, is I'm sure they can do better. But I've seen a lot of really excellent stuff in cata too, so I'm sure they are just smoothing it all out. Very excited about Cataclsym in general.

Anyway, RE chakra, here's what I mean:

Quote:
When activated, your next Heal, Renew, Prayer of Healing or Smite spell will put you into a corresponding Chakra state. Lasts for 30 sec.

Heal - Increases the critical effect chance of your Heal spell by 10%, and your Heal refreshes the duration of your Renew on the target.

Renew - Increases the healing done by your Renew spell by 10%, and reduces the global cooldown of your Renew spell by .5 sec.

Prayer of Healing - Increases the healing done by your area of effect spells by 10% and reduces the cooldown of your Circle of Healing by 2 sec.

Smite - Increases your total damage done by Shadow and Holy spells by 15%.
I'm not even sure what the purpose of this is. I will think on it more later. But if I, as a professional game designer who specializes in game mechanics and used to play a priest, finds this disorienting, one can only guess what a typical 15 year old player thinks.

As for the warlock skill, I like how soul shards work, but the way it SHOULD be introduced at level 12 is:
When you first get it, just says 'makes your demons summon instantly'

Then you expand from there with new mechanics on it every few levels, or when you get the skill it interacts with. I believe only like 2 of 4 effects are avail when you get it... or something. Will improve usability a lot.

Alternatively, you make it so that it starts off only displaying skills it has, then when you have new interactions, show a popup that reveals that your skill has new abilities within it -- with ability to see the details. or something.

- Zileas


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

10-16-2010
70 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzumeStjohn View Post
So it was removed because you couldn't get the graphics right? Is that how we are reading this?
Well, it just depends. Sometimes you just have a better idea that is less hard to implement, so you do that instead. We could put rupture in the game and have it be a lot better than rupture in DOTA by giving it a better presentation. But we think there are better ideas. So we do those.


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Ursalgodon

Senior Member

10-16-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
So why are you playing LoL and not another game ;p
Why are you talking so much about WoW? I came to read about anti-patterns in LoL which had good content but then you got all soap-boxy regarding WoW. I understand your WoW examples but we both know many wont. Meh.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

10-16-2010
71 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ursalgodon View Post
Why are you talking so much about WoW? I came to read about anti-patterns in LoL which had good content but then you got all soap-boxy regarding WoW. I understand your WoW examples but we both know many wont. Meh.
There are a lot of LoL examples too

but WoW is the most widely played game in the western world;p


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Dyabolic

Senior Member

10-16-2010

Quote:
As a result, we tend to keep Auras weak, and/or avoid them altogether
The thing here is, you guys said this a while back that you were gonna stay away from auras but next thing you know BAM! Sona is released....


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Ursalgodon

Senior Member

10-16-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
There are a lot of LoL examples too

but WoW is the most widely played game in the western world;p
There are a lot of LoL examples which I appreciated. I was hoping to see specific examples for each anti-pattern. Loved the content just not the relevance in some cases.