Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

First Riot Post
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Knote

Senior Member

10-15-2010

As far as Casuals vs. Hardcore group i'm gonna quote myself. =p

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knote View Post
Would be cool if they had champs that were more confusing only accessible at higher levels. So if you had a champion with a rupture effect, or abilities that you had to get some experience to figure out what they did first (plenty of examples already) then you wouldn't be able to play them or against them until higher level where you get more experience.

I have no problem letting people learn and get a smooth start (even though it's ruined by smurfs anyway), but you shouldn't sacrifice higher levels of play for that. =/

TBH the WCG games were so boring to watch.
Then again, I guess the issue would persist even at lvl 30. =/


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Lightstriker

Adjudicator

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by WaterD103 View Post
Zileas sucks. I posted saying so so it must be true. But I can tell he's getting involved in the game less because... uhm... I said he is!
You ARE aware that Soraka is being considered for buffs and sona just came out, right? And nobody is really complaining about those champions >.>

As for the rest of it: You listed a champion that will never be competitive due to his design as an example of good competitive design. Nice. The rest of it is vague QQ with no support whatsoever. But coolstorybro.


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Lazersharkzilla

Junior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knote View Post
Something could be overly complex and still synergize well with itself or other abilities, so I'm not sure that's the right definition of an ability that is "Pointlessly Convoluted".

I think Swain's Torment was a good example of this. It was pointless to have the maledict effect when you could just make it a flat 20% bonus dmg while its up instead. But alot of people think the maledict effect made it more fun, so I don't agree that it was pointlessly convoluted, just convoluted. Although convoluted seems like too strong of a word to use for things like this. Maledict REALLY isn't that hard of a concept to grasp. So it's just complex, but pointlessly complex, even though making it complex made it more fun for [some] people.

Would the reactive portion of Prayer of Mending being pointlessly complex? It's basically what made it different from Chain Heal (or Healing Wave from WC3). It was cool though that it was reactive and would sit there until it was ready to continue bouncing, rather than just do all of its bounces immediately.
Prayer of Mending was RNG with some intelligent AI. Design was complex but it was easy to use and understand. Therefore it's not overly complex or "convoluted."

When something is overly complex and it synergizes well with everything else, that's when it becomes OP. Not to be confused with straight damage being too high, heal healing for too much OP.


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Osirris

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Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
It's a matter of degree. Every single ability in a PVP game has some burden of knowledge. But... it's only a serious issue when you have frustration if the opponent doesnt know combined with a difficulty of learning it.

Which varies on your demographic. What exactly is LoLs target age group? I could see rupture being annoying for many reason to a 12-14 year old, but once someone develops some of the qualities it takes to play games and comprehend (instead of walking into the same hallway every respawn to get headshot, but man I really want that guy!) whats going.

I learned that running up to a tower with a Bloodseeker was a bad idea because he was probably going to ult me on his tower when my wave died out and then beat on me. It took me one game to figure this out.

Now lets talk turkey. Theres 61(?) heroes in LoL. DotA is at almost 100 yet its userbase it extremely dedicated. DotAs a game where they can do as they please and release new interesting concepts into the market because no one is going out, buying a game thats 7 years old and discovering dota going holy **** this is new, amazing and I must play. Theres a MASSIVE amount of burden of knowledge in DotA. But on the flipside there are a MASSIVE amount of really cool spells. Like really cool.

So I have to wonder here: Is the target demographic for this game way younger then the range I feel it should be? I would see it as being around 16-2X (I put the X there because people get older and will play the same cell shaded game despite its looks, some kids will not play a game based on the graphics.) Am I wrong? Furthermore is the level of Burden of Knowledge your comfortable with going to interfere with me seeing deep, new heroes?

Yes you have to realize that you have to keep things easy for the lower age groups/people who don't grasp things as fast, but then you also have to realize:
The majority of people who are paying riot points for skins/champions etc. want deep, interesting, and NEW mechanics/heroes in the game.

Shouldn't your target not to be pleasing the masses, but the people with the cash that support your game?


Edit: Bringing maledict in was going to be a brilliant start. Swain was actually a lot like WD and there were beyond a couple of posts about people being excited about this mechanic. Then it was scrapped. This didn't really nerf the character too much, but you nerfed our hearts.

Double Edit: Thanks for responding.


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SonicTheHedgedawg

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Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
Except you won't run unless you can run to a specific point.

Let's assume you can survive his right click for 6 seconds before dying. If rupture lasts 5 seconds, your best course of action is probably to wait those 5 seconds out and then run. Yay, you lived. However, ideally you'd like to take as little damage as possible. How are you to know "well okay I can run for maybe one second, then wait it out, because now I'll be in range of Taric's Imbue."

The real point is: What positive feature was gained here? As the receiving player you can choose between two bad things? Yay! Let's compound that by allowing players to make terrible, debilitating mistakes by not understanding the ability. There's not a lot gained here.
The thing it adds is an innovative ability. I know, that, if we veiw Zileas' OP and don't use common sense, it seems like he's saying that all abilities should be vanilla and simple. Affects that aren't simply understood and optimizable by EVERYONE in the game should be removed, or should be so incredibly obvious that even a brain-dead octopus could understand it by the 15 minute mark.


I know Zileas isn't saying that. That would mean that new characters would just have to stop existing because you could only create so many vanilla combinations.



So, as far as this example, a bleeding DoT, you look at it and say "Oooh. That sounds fun. It's unique to this character and I could definitely see that having some utility"

The question then becomes "Could less perceptive/knowledgable players figure out this ability and the right way to react to it?" (in my opinion, we should add the qualifier "more than other abilities that are already in the game")

I think the answer is "yes." Especially if death recap explains the ability, you'll know you'll take damage if you move, you know you'll take damage if you stand. You may not know WHICH way is going to result in more damage in certain situations, but, in other situations it may be more apparent.

Maybe you feel good as the enemy, standing still and effectively countering a character's ult, maybe you feel good as the user, preveting shaco or nidalee from running away at 100 HP. Whatever the cause, this ability allows the enemy limited control over his/her fate which IS a good mechanic. (and certainly easier to notice than vladamir's ult's effects for newbies).


It's NOT obvious in all cases which choice is best and it's NOT a simple skill with normalized damage, but it's got character and flavour which should be weighed fairly with what it has going against it.


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Knote

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valeyon View Post
Prayer of Mending was RNG with some intelligent AI. Design was complex but it was easy to use and understand. Therefore it's not overly complex or "convoluted."

When something is overly complex and it synergizes well with everything else, that's when it becomes OP. Not to be confused with straight damage being too high, heal healing for too much OP.
I'm talking about the reactive part. Chain Heal also was a smart heal and easy to use.

Bolded part makes no sense at all.

Also Maledict was complex but easy to use and understand. Dot the target, unload as much dmg as you could.


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NinNinNin

Senior Member

10-15-2010

When I am new to a game I accept there will be things I will have to ask about or look up online, things that will screw me over until I get used to them, I didn't mind. It's part of the experience and I found it fun. It can be frustrating but it's also very satisfying to overcome it and develop as a player, and sometimes share this knowledge with others who don't have it.

We are not simpletons and designing a game as if we are is unnecessarily limiting your own creativity and creating a game that may grow stale, repetitive.


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Lazersharkzilla

Junior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicTheHedgedawg View Post
A) It's not a false choice. You are making the assumption that you DIE either way.
I'm calling complete shenanigans on this one. Equate it to being ganked by something with a slow: Do you stay and fight or ATTEMPT to run away even though you can't outspeed them due to being slowed.
The choice would be one that you CAN make on the fly based on your current health and how much health you are losing relative to how much distance you need to cover to be "safe." And it's the same choice you need to make when it comes to standing and fighting or turning and running when slowed. The mechanics are different, that's all.


B) I don't need to. The point is that being stun locked is not fun. The exact situation doesn't matter. Maybe you were the farthest behind when your team beat a retreat. Maybe you got ganked. Maybe you got focused in a team fight. Whatever the cause, being unable to move, attack or defend yourself in any manner for an extended period of time is ANTI-FUN
  • Also. How hypocritical of you to site ME for not understanding the point of Zileas' OP, and then completely ignoring that the message I posted was about the anti-fun created by stun locks and, instead focusing on the importance of proper map awareness.
    • Strawmanning isn't cool.
But if you have low health, my point still stands. Restating a point proved flawed is still a flawed point.

Being stunlocked isnt fun, but dedicating your entire team/resources to a gank and then having them escape isn't fun either. In one case you could have prevented it if you had map awareness. In the other, there was literally nothing else you could have done and they still survived, that sucks too bro. I didn't detract from your point, I just told you how you could counter it.

Also, stop getting excited, this is a discussion. Discussion is good.


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Lightstriker

Adjudicator

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osirris View Post
Which varies on your demographic. What exactly is LoLs target age group? I could see rupture being annoying for many reason to a 12-14 year old, but once someone develops some of the qualities it takes to play games and comprehend (instead of walking into the same hallway every respawn to get headshot, but man I really want that guy!) whats going.
Of the many people I know who quit playing Dota, I know 3 in particular, all over the age of 18 when they quit, who quit ONLY because of bloodseeker. They started simply dodging every game they saw him, and ended up just quitting because he was in EVERY noob game. It simply was an enjoyability mechanic. Even if you "get" it, or read about it, you still can often not "get" it. When do you run, when do you not. And if you're not paying attention... well, you're suddenly dead, and you don't really know why. Being headshot is no ****. Running, thinking it's just a DoT, and then realizing you somehow just took XXXX damage is NOT intuitive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NinNinNin View Post
When I am new to a game I accept there will be things I will have to ask about or look up online, things that will screw me over until I get used to them, I didn't mind. It's part of the experience and I found it fun. It can be frustrating but it's also very satisfying to overcome it and develop as a player, and sometimes share this knowledge with others who don't have it.

We are not simpletons and designing a game as if we are is unnecessarily limiting your own creativity and creating a game that may grow stale, repetitive.
Learning to last hit? Something you have to learn that makes you better. Learning exactly how HP bar works, and exactly how much damage abilities do/ how long stuns last? Something that makes you better.

Learning that if you're exactly 575 range from the slightly-offpurple ward, which is hidden in a field of 10 purple wards, you take 99999 damage and otherwise, if you're within 580 range, instantly heal to full? Not intuitive. Not fun.

Also, ALMOST any ability can be handled in an intuitive manner. I mean... name an ability. You can do it in a way that makes sense and is immediately, or almost immediately, clear to the opponents on use. You might have to streamline it, sure, but that's rarely removing gameplay. Just removing complexity. Complexity for the sake of complexity not skill make.


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Doublelift

Senior Member

10-15-2010

I just realized, are you Zilea from Hawk Gaming?

All I know is you got R1 S6 and you make posts on WoM