Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

First Riot Post
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Phreak

Shoutcaster

10-15-2010
30 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOddOne View Post
Rupture should be fairly obvious if the animation is obvious after dying to the first time, I think the only reason there was any confusion about it (if any) in dota was the fact that the animation was hardly noticable and it dealt initial damage confusing people to when it was doing damage. In this genre, there is absolutely nothing you can do about this for the first time, when I laned against a Miss Fortune for the first time without knowing what her skills were, she first blooded me around 30 seconds into the lane because I had no idea how broken she was that early and her kite damage was beyond even Ezreal's if you ever try to extend or push. There is simply no possible way to know anything about her without actually looking at her champion stats or skillset.
It's possible to demonstrate "if you move, it will hurt" so I'll give you that, but there are further flaws with the ability as detailed in the OP. Rupture itself isn't really that exciting of an ability. Why not just make it a root? Being stuck in place for something like 5 seconds is a long time to be stuck in place. I think 3 seconds is our longest root, and for those of you facing Morgana without Mercury Treads, that kinda hurts. I mean do you really feel like doing the math on, "Okay I can run away exactly 600 units and stay alive, which should allow me to get in range of my healer?" Where does the ability communicate how far you can move before it kills you? If you memorize the tooltip?
Quote:
I disagree about this one, I think anything that gives more choice or freedom to make plays is better. Take Annie, this pattern is constantly on her as when a teamfight or a opportunity to do kiting damage occurs, the question asked constantly is :'should Annie use up her stun hoping it'll be up to use with tibbers before the fight begins or should she not use her stun at all because a fight may occur soon'.
I agree that making choices is good. That's what the example of Blink was for. There are hundreds of cool ways to use blink, just like there are hundreds of cool ways to use Energize. You can stay at 4 stacks, throw Incinerate to blow up Banshee's Veil, and then drop Tibbers. Etc. But the purpose of the ability is clear. Energize stuns a target. How you use that stun is up to you. How you manage the 5-cast-per-stun resource is up to you. That's fun and extremely simple.

Problem with a huge slow + huge nuke is that you're always going to lose part of the ability. It feels bad to lose a significant part of the ability. If it's a minor slow, you know that it's negligible and not a huge problem if you don't use your full duration 20% slow.


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Lazersharkzilla

Junior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicTheHedgedawg View Post
Agreeing with you and further srguing the point:

Team stun-lock is TERRIBLE to play against in LoL. while changes have been made so it's not as bad as before, it still feels TERRIBLE to get grabbed by a Blitzcrank who you didn't know was MIA and in your bushes, then stunned into the air, then stunned by sion when you fall back down and silenced by kassadin, rooted by morgana, etc. if you aren't dead yet.

I'm sure it was fun for the opposing team to murder me on the spot like that, but when you have literally zero control over your fate, that is not fun.


Try playing super smash Bros. brawl against the Ice Climbers who have an innescapable chain grab if they set it up right. Sure, if you know what you're doing the game becomes an exciting game of feints and pokes as you try to evade the grab range of the ice-climbers, but if you DO tend to get grabbed by them, you can say goodbye to that life... even if you are at 0% damage.

Maybe it feels good to infinite grab like that, but as the player grabbed, it's simply not fun AT ALL to be tossed about like a ragdoll with literally no control over my character. If the iceclimbers don't mess up their throws, I can't MAKE myself escape.


It's the same amount of anti-fun that's caused when people pub-stop with twitches, eves or shacos.
I agree with this on most points. But imo, if you didn't notice that EVERYONE had disappeared:

A) Map awareness. Get some.

B) If their entire team dedicates to killing you in such an organized way and you don't die, the game is inbalanced or you're playing Garen.

I also realize this is the point of the "flash to safety" arguement, but stuns easily negate flash, reorganize your team gank setup and location, etc.

I'm not saying "FFS LRN 2 PLY NUB!!1!". But a key point of this game is map awareness and part of setting up and organizing a gank is that map awareness.

Just my 2 cents.


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Knote

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
Rupture itself isn't really that exciting of an ability. Why not just make it a root?.
Could say the same for Tryndamere's shout. Why not just make it snare no matter where the enemy is facing. =p


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Phreak

Shoutcaster

10-15-2010
31 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knote View Post
Could say the same for Tryndamere's shout. Why not just make it snare no matter where the enemy is facing. =p
For what it's worth, I agree on this. I think we still have some silly mechanics still in our game that shouldn't be there.

There's no way to know you'd be slowed one way or not the other.


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Rokudan

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The Council

10-15-2010

Off-topic: Zileas you said that WoW has the best classes out of any MMO, have you played LOTRO? I loved their classes in that game. Especially the Rune-Keeper.

The sheer versatility and potency of the class has made it my favorite class in any MMO I have played. I had so much fun switching from healing to dps on the fly and being able to save catastrophic situations. There were a couple other classes that had similar awesome-feeling moments.


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Knote

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
For what it's worth, I agree on this. I think we still have some silly mechanics still in our game that shouldn't be there.

There's no way to know you'd be slowed one way or not the other.
I'm pretty sure this is going to be a bit of a silly example however....

What if you had two ways to get home from work. You could take the shortest way, which is just a direct path to your house on the sidewalk, or you could take the long way which has a great view of the ocean. Which do you take.

Now I'm not saying you HAVE to have more complex abilities to make things fun, and it's great you try to make it fun w/o doing that. It just seems like Riot is gonna take it too far.

I guess I'll take Swain as an example, none of his abilities are really that fun, although I really like his Ult. Wouldn't you consider his ult "pointlessly convoluted"?


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SonicTheHedgedawg

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Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
I mean do you really feel like doing the math on, "Okay I can run away exactly 600 units and stay alive, which should allow me to get in range of my healer?" Where does the ability communicate how far you can move before it kills you? If you memorize the tooltip?
How difficult would it be, assuming the bleed is a DoT instead of a delayed nuke, that you've reached a point that you can't run anymore or you'll die.

I agree if the attack hits as a delayed nuke, that would be extremely frustrating to play against and very anti-fun. But if you lose X health as you move, it's easy to say "woah... I've moved too far. Time to stop"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valeyon View Post
I agree with this on most points. But imo, if you didn't notice that EVERYONE had disappeared:

A) Map awareness. Get some.

B) If their entire team dedicates to killing you in such an organized way and you don't die, the game is inbalanced or you're playing Garen.

I also realize this is the point of the "flash to safety" arguement, but stuns easily negate flash, reorganize your team gank setup and location, etc.

I'm not saying "FFS LRN 2 PLY NUB!!1!". But a key point of this game is map awareness and part of setting up and organizing a gank is that map awareness.

Just my 2 cents.
The example was contrived. A hyperbole for the sake of illustration.


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Knote

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roku View Post
Off-topic: Zileas you said that WoW has the best classes out of any MMO, have you played LOTRO? I loved their classes in that game. Especially the Rune-Keeper.

The sheer versatility and potency of the class has made it my favorite class in any MMO I have played. I had so much fun switching from healing to dps on the fly and being able to save catastrophic situations. There were a couple other classes that had similar awesome-feeling moments.
Did he really say that? I would disagree on WoW having the best classes of any MMO. Pre-BC the classes were so god awfully boring to me, if it wasn't for fun/hard boss encounters and the social aspects I wouldn't have played it.

However when BC came out, Blizzard finally started adding some more fun things such as Prayer of Mending and Lifebloom. Would those 2 spells be considered too complex or overly convoluted? If so that would be a shame as I LOVE those 2 abilities and was happy that Blizzard finally picked it up.

IMO Guild Wars had the BEST class/spell system OF ALL TIME.
Edit : (Wow I just sounded like Kanye West here)


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Lazersharkzilla

Junior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knote View Post
I'm pretty this is going to be a bit of a silly example however....

What if you had two ways to get home from work. You could take the shortest way, which is just a direct path to your house on the sidewalk, or you could take the long way which has a great view of the ocean. Which do you take.

Now I'm not saying you HAVE to have more complex abilities to make things fun, and it's great you try to make it fun w/o doing that. It just seems like Riot is gonna take it too far.

I guess I'll take Swain as an example, none of his abilities are really that fun, although I really like his Ult. Wouldn't you consider his ult "pointlessly convoluted"?
I don't think you understand anything Zileas said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicTheHedgedawg View Post
A) How difficult would it be, assuming the bleed is a DoT instead of a delayed nuke, that you've reached a point that you can't run anymore or you'll die.

I agree if the attack hits as a delayed nuke, that would be extremely frustrating to play against and very anti-fun. But if you lose X health as you move, it's easy to say "woah... I've moved too far. Time to stop"


B) The example was contrived. A hyperbole for the sake of illustration.
A) That's not the point. The point is it gives you a false choice. Run and die or stay and die. Either way you die.

B) And I was using the given example. Give me a better example and I will give you another response.


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Knote

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valeyon View Post
I don't think you understand anything Zileas said.
Told you it was a silly example.

I wasn't necessarily talking about the Burden of Knowledge and things like that. Just when people say things are "overly convoluted" and stuff. Wouldn't Swain's Ultimate be considered that? From reading everything here it seems like Complex = Bad, bad, bad and ALWAYS bad.