Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

First Riot Post
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Zileas

VP of Game Design

07-26-2011
255 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Centuros View Post
About the Burden of Knowledge thing: what if (Rupture, for example) gave a debuff, that tells you RIGHT THERE exactly what it does? (also, it should tell you on death screen, too)

Would this not fix the problem of not knowing what the heck an ability does?
Yes, that would significantly mitigate the problem. Then you'd just have the fact that the skill doesn't synergize that well with the rest of Bloodseeker's ability. So, it would still be a bad ability, just not one with an absurd burden of knowledge. I still think it would tend to be confusing though -- just a lot less.


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Madman Reborn

Senior Member

07-26-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Yes, that would significantly mitigate the problem. Then you'd just have the fact that the skill doesn't synergize that well with the rest of Bloodseeker's ability. So, it would still be a bad ability, just not one with an absurd burden of knowledge. I still think it would tend to be confusing though -- just a lot less.
The biggest problem with rupture is there is no counterplay to it. You either stand still(making it a CC but does no damage) or you keep running and take massive damage.

Edit: you could try to fix it like they did in dota by lowering the damage on move and giving a start damage but then it would just turn into a single nuke which counters the mechanic. Nevertheless, the burden isn't that big of a deal, you'll learn after getting killed by it a few times, getting a counter against it isn't as easy. Which is ofcourse some more burden of knowledge, ****it i'm tired.


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The14th

Senior Member

07-26-2011

Holy ****, this thread is still going and is STILL talking about rupture?!?


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Remz

Senior Member

07-26-2011

Come on Zileas, honestly i respect you guys for trying to make it easier for people just starting out, but you must know that your anti fun "laws" are restricting you on making cool and unique spells.

Look at dota, there are so many cool spells, that your "laws" dont allow. Personally my favorite dota hero is earthshaker and I would love to pretty much see a port of him


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ReleaseTheEvil

Senior Member

07-26-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Most likely not. We think that globals in general hurt the game by destroying a lot of otherwise interesting small conflicts with external influence. We would like to nerf existing global abilities to simply be very long range, with the exception of Karthus. Soraka's ult is borderline OK too. But Shen, Panth, TF, etc cause a lot of problems when they are 'strong enough'.
Zileas' word is law! :P


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Manbearlove

Member

07-26-2011

I understand to simplify means to make the UI and certain abilities in the game more user friendly. It's just either way for a "newbie" to start playing the game for the first time they already need to have a basic understanding of the game last hitting, Los for champion abilities, and my favorite facechecking.

Either way zileas this game is very complex at it's core giving champions more complex abilities imo will only add more depth and more of a special uniqueness to champions(if they have an ability that isn't like another champs).
^see morganna snare and lux snare


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IS1d0cb1517abd96

Senior Member

07-26-2011

Idk if anyone pointed if out. Excellent sample of Burden of Knowledge in LoL.

Tryndamere's Undying Rage

For first few games against him I was wondering "WTH?! Why he isn't dying?!" Until I read/someone told me, that it's how his ultimate works.

Also it's not only about certain abilities. Knowing what can and what can't do all champions in the game is knowledge you have to have.

Even if their abilities are more or less obvious, you still have to know how they work. I remember my first months of playing DotA. Until i learned all abilities of all heroes, i often were dying cus i didn't know what they can do and in DotA there was a lot of abilities similar to Bloodseeker. Sundere of Magina's twin (forgot his name/title). If you don''t know this switch his and target health, you're screw. Though i still used to forget that enemy heroes also has abilities and was rushing at enemies cus i can kill them xD" (and i still tend do forget some of enemies abilities from time to time, but much less often).

It also was reason i was very reluctant to start playing LoL, when my friends were switching, beacuse I just have already learned all abilities of all heroes and could play without fear, and then i would have to learn all LoL's champions abilities from start? No, thank you. But after some time I decided to give LoL shot.

EDIT/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manbearlove View Post
^see morganna snare and lux snare
It's lore connected. Lux can steal spells and she stole Morgana's Dark Binding and change it into her own spell. After learning it it is more of nice addition than copying of skill.

EDIT2/ BTW. I also remember dying to BS ultimate a lot times and being sure he just killed me from auto attacks. I didn't learn i need to stop moving until a year or 2 of playing DotA. Yes, people often said to me "don't run from him' or thing along this line, but they never said "moving is damaging you". I even don't remember how I learned what his ulti doing. Probably just chose him once.


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Manbearlove

Member

07-26-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umika View Post

EDIT/

It's lore connected. Lux can steal spells and she stole Morgana's Dark Binding and change it into her own spell. After learning it it is more of nice addition than copying of skill.
I was just saying something that was on the top of my head lol. There are certainty other abilities in the game that are similar to others.

The point i was trying to make is that making abilities more complex makes it more unique and fun in every sense of the word.

Having to follow rules on designing abilities i would imagine is pretty difficult. So without restrictions i wonder what riot could come up with.(within reason of course)


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The Roman Empire

Senior Member

08-08-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Unclear Optimization
This is a more subtle one. when players KNOW they've used a spell optimally, they feel really good. An example is disintegrate on Annie. When you kill a target and get the mana back, you know that you used it optimally, and this makes the game more fun. On the other hand, some mechanics are so convoluted, or have so many contrary effects, that it is not possible to 'off the cuff' analyze if you played optimally, so you tend not to be satisfied. A good example of this is Proudmoore's ult in DOTA where he drops a ship. The ship hits the target a bit in the future, dealing a bunch of damage and some stun to enemies. Allies on the other hand get damage resistance and bonus move speed, but damage mitigated comes up later. Very complicated! And almost impossible to know if you have used it optimally -- do you really want your squishies getting into the AOE? Maybe! Maybe not... It's really hard to know that you've used this skill optimally and feel that you made a 'clutch' play, because it's so hard to tell, and there are so many considerations you have to make. On the other hand, with Ashe's skill shot, if you hit the guy who was weak and running, you know you did it right... You also know you did it right if you slowed their entire team... Ditto on Ezreal's skill shot.
I feel like Yorick's ultimate is the embodiment of this anti-pattern. Let me explain why:

Yorick's ultimate, Omen of Death, makes a ghost of the target with 75% of their attack damage (controllable by you) for ten seconds. If the target dies within those ten seconds, they are revived for a further ten seconds (controllable by them) to do whatever they want. This ability has so many applications is staggering, which is what I think makes it a great ultimate. However, its very rare that you actually get the full effect of his ultimate - unless you lose a teamfight.

Typically with his ultimate you shoot for only ONE of the two uses of the ability. Most of the time in teamfights I find myself with a choice: Use the ultimate on our AP/Jungler who is getting focused/CC'd HARD and can't get their burst off to revive them when they die...or use the ultimate on our AD carry who is sitting pretty at the back of the fight and get the 75% bonus AD effect. In the first case, if they don't die my ultimate was completely wasted. In the second case, the revive aspect is wasted because the AD isn't getting focused.

Ideally, you ult your AD carry and he/she gets 9 seconds of the ghost, dies, and then 10 seconds of resurrection effect. But that's not always optimal depending on the situation. What if your AD is feeding while your AP is fed to hell and died, should you have used it on her? What if your jungler is fed but he's a melee like Nocturne, should you have ulted him instead? I mean, the ghost would be more powerful, but ulting a melee is usually useless because they can never get in attack range. What if I died? Should I have ulted myself?

To be clear, I think Yorick's ultimate is extremely powerful; however, I hate it. I don't feel powerful when I use it for the ghost effect alone. And I feel terrible when we lose a teamfight, regardless of whether or not it was my fault. I just keep second guessing the target of my ultimate and whether or not I even used it correctly.

Anyways, just my two cents. Feel free to agree or disagree Yorick lovers.


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Godunderscor

Senior Member

08-13-2011

It seems to me that Yorick's normal Ghouls fall under the False Choice - Ineffective Choice category.

Looking at them, they give no bounty for killing; and the task of killing one can be time-consuming. They also have a low cooldown, so killing one doesn't hurt Yorick's damage for a long period.

Killing a ghoul does reduce Yorick's damage and tankiness, but only by a small percentage; and again - given the low cooldown - I feel it's better to skip past the ghouls and target other threats.