Welcome to the Forum Archive!

Years of conversation fill a ton of digital pages, and we've kept all of it accessible to browse or copy over. Whether you're looking for reveal articles for older champions, or the first time that Rammus rolled into an "OK" thread, or anything in between, you can find it here. When you're finished, check out the boards to join in the latest League of Legends discussions.

GO TO BOARDS


Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dreakforth

Senior Member

04-21-2011

Quote:
Schnickness:
All Right, I have somewhat built a reputation for myself and hopefully Riot Team has taken notice of The Rookie List (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=582114) which is easily the most successful Champion collection posts, and if you guys actually read it clearly the most helpful thing EVER to be posted in Champion Feedback.


All Champions that are pre LeBlanc had their abilities basic effects picked from a box, then their secondary effects picked from another box.

If you are going to post something like this, please don't contradict Riot.

i.e. Master Yi.... where do I begin

Q - Fine, This suits a Swordsman.

W - What the ****, yes I get that he is supposed to be Oriental, this does not mean he has to meditate! It is completely out of place amidst his other abilities, this would suit better on a caster or a tank.

E - Boring and simple, but it suits his theme.

R - You talk about "anti-patterns" Giving a Champion the ability to run at an unslowable massive movement speed, packed by his immense damage means he will be able to kill most champions 1v1 if they aren't a tank. Heck, I've seen a Master Yi kill 1v3 with his ultimate active the entire time and then simply have it ready to use again after doing so, whilst the other 2 on the team attempt to get to him he sits there and meditates back to full and then kills the other 2. (HE WAS NOT FED AT ALL)

That is an Anti-Pattern, and IMO very poor Champion Design.

I would prefer the aura, if a player wasn't ******ed at maths they would obviously accept the aura.
You could even go the 1 step further and combine the 2.

@ Sona comment, that is the dumbest thing I have ever read, it made me want to rip my eyes out and eat them! People would appreciate them far more if they had a greater effect (i.e. Lets Bring Sona into a team fight, so we all essentially have Baron Buffs rather then slight increases that really make no difference)
Yes, giving a Champ the ability to passively buff nearby allies to the extent of Baron buff would be poor design, however stating that PLAYERS prefer less of a buff then a greater one is just ******ed...

@Rupture Comment, In all honesty I am starting to loose faith in Riot's Design Team the further on I read.

1. Playing against a Bloodseeker obviously opens you up to the fact that at any point you are close to him, he is likely to cast Rupture. What makes a player good is knowing what enemy champs and allied champs are capable of doing and when.

2. When you get hit by rupture, it is very obvious that you have been hit. This can be seen by the large amount of blood gushing from your champion. If you cannot see this and keep running you deserve to die.

3. Buff/Debuffs.... They are there for a reason to give a HUD on what is currently affecting your champion for better or worse!

4. Burden of Knowledge promotes team talk. This is essential to winning a game, the more communication of players that are aware of what can happen and even asking... wtf happened is what helps you learn, and hopefully it will only take you 1-3 times to realise how to avoid it. THIS IS WHY ALL NEW CHAMPS GET COMPLAINED ABOUT BEING OP IN THE FIRST FEW DAYS OF RELEASE, BECAUSE EVERYONE IS BURDENED WITH LACK OF KNOWLEDGE

Unclear Optimization
- Yes and no, for example Irelia will forever have an unclear optimization because it can only ever do one of the two effects per cast.
- @Proudmoore comment you are so, SO wrong.
- Not every ability in a game will be optimized to its maximum potential, however if you cast this and it results in your team scoring a kill without anyone dying, that it has been optimized whether or not it buffed your allies or not.

An LoL example of Poor Optimization is the way you have designed and constructed Tryndamere.
- His Innate grants him more crit and crit damage the lower his HP is, and this synergizes like a peach with Undying Rage.
- Bloodlust however is Poorly optimized, as it not only counter effects your Innate, but it also removes the buffs you gain from it when used, essentially a player must decide when to use this and when it will be most effective, never really gaining full optimization from this ability!

Use Pattern Mis-matches Surrounding Gameplay

... So for example if a ranged champion had a melee ability that did KB to an opponent this would be a mis-match?
These abilities are necessary some times!

Fun Fails to Exceed Anti-Fun

AHAHAHAH That is rich coming from the design team that made it possible to get CC chained by the greater majority of Champion Lineups.

As this game was based of DotA, I should remind you that there are only 4 Vanilla CCs.
- Stun
- Freeze
- Snare
- Blind

And all of these were used to a limited extent. However in LoL there are maybe.... 10 Champions at the most that DO NOT have a CC, compared to the greater majority of champions in DotA.

If a Champion for example had a powerful manaburn that reduced it's target's mana by a huge chunk, and then upon re-cast or after X seconds that mana was sent back to the target dealing additional damage, this would be the ultimate fix for your "anti-fun" problem.

Conflicted Purpose
- Clearly an ability like this would be used first, only a noob or an ******* last hitter would save this for the kill.
- i.e. If you cast this on an opponent that had say 1.5k HP, (ignoring resistances) this would reduce them to 1k HP and slow them, allowing you to pop in more damage for the kill.
HOWEVER! If you used normal abilities against the same target, and were greedy enough to not open with a slow and big damage, and instead waited til you were certain this would get the last hit. It not only is unoptimized, but it wastes the full damage potential AND the slow.

Anti-Combo
- Just because a Warrior needs to be hit to gain rage does not mean they HAVE to be hit.
- There is a thing called Auto Attacks which majority of games have, so if you chain a stun in that gives you an immediate DPS advantage against the enemy, essentially still assisting in helping you win a conflict.

False Choice -- Deceptive Wrong Choice
- Wrong, there is a thing that I like to call the "Surprise Cockfags Effect" in which, the ability example you stated has multi-uses, even for enemies.
- i.e. If the champion casts this wall in the attempt to knock a weakened opponent towards you and the intended victim manages to avoid it, then along comes a full hp tanky DPS charging straight at your wall, willing to take the damage it deals in order to get all up in your grill. This is a prime example of SCE.
A room with three treasure chests, all of which have no treasure and lethal traps
Well yeah, but If you have a Good Rogue they can check first >.>

False Choice -- Ineffective Choice
- This is what makes a game fun ffs!
- If there were an ability that dealt higher damage the closer to the centre of it, but slowed target's hit by say 15%, but did less damage the further away they were from the centre but slowed by 50%.
- Abilities like this are what makes games fun, as they require quick decision making and premeditated tactics to ensure a kill against the target.

"Do you nuke them harder or do you slow them more??"

Questions like this are what add the competitive edge to gaming, and more of stuff like this is essential to a game!

Or We Could **** the Player!!1111oneoneone

- This happens all the time with Fiddles (Fear, Drain wait.... silence more drain Repeat.. >_&gt

In all honesty, the Riot Team has a fetish for pumping their champion's with CC's.
Enough is enough, as there are far too many in game already!

This Creation of a Player ****ing is the only thing letting down LoL at the moment.
I Suggest instead of bringing out newer and newer champs, revisit the old ones and remake their abilities to suit the flow of abilities that these new champs exhibit.

i.e. Master Yi, one of the oldest needs a desperate remake. His abilities are very boring, this is offset however by the fact that he is stupidly powerful. Essentially, the way to win a game (of anything) is to Stack Crit, Attack Speed and Dodge (PA) and you have done the same thing to Yi!
- Q avoids damage and is a Blink
- W is a prime example of sitting in the middle of battle and essentially ignoring enemies during Lane phase!
- E just adds damage, and when activated adds some more (like ****, I've seen some bad champion suggestion abilities and Yi's takes the cake for boring)
- R adds MS..... Bleh >.>

Non-Reliability
Tryndamere's shout is not an example of this and here is why:
- If you use it and enemies are facing you, they have their damage reduced so you can comfortably fight them at melee range.
- If they are running, then this means they are facing away and the slow serves it's purpose.
- If this ability were to slow target's facing him, it would be unessential as he already has a very good escape ability and slowing a target's MS for an steady area fight accounts for nothing, seeing you need to be at melee range anyway, meaning they can hit you back.


Your approach at Champ Design IMO needs a big cup of coffee.

Players DO want exciting abilities!

Take a Look at the List I posted and run through the Rookie List section, pick a Champion and make them and I ensure that it will make over 9 million in RP sales >.>


Yes, yes aaaaaand... yes!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TheGr8erGood

Junior Member

04-25-2011

Stop putting disables on auto-attack champions. (Nocturne and MANY MANY MORE).
Stop putting un-synergy like abilities on auto-attack champions. (Yi)
Stop putting disables on every champion.
Lower the threshold of move-speed. Why is someone with 50 less movespeed still able to follow and auto attack? lol

Meditate on Yi is like Healing Ward on Juggernaught. Sure it's a good spell, WHY IS IT ON *THAT* CHAMPION?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TheGr8erGood

Junior Member

04-25-2011

The movespeed is a huuuuge problem for people. The only time you notice it is Boots + 1 Versus No Boots. lol.

Noteworthy questions:
Are there ever going to be new runes/masteries/summoner spells?
Level cap going to change?
The rune system is basically the biggest contradiction to "KNOWING VERSUS UN-KNOWING" I've ever seen. I play with kids who are level 30 with empty rune books. Come on.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

The Ashiikhan

Junior Member

05-15-2011

Quote:

Burden of Knowledge
This is a VERY common pattern amongst hardcore novice game designers. This pattern is when you do a complex mechanic that creates gameplay -- ONLY IF the victim understands what is going on. Rupture is a great example -- with Rupture in DOTA, you receive a DOT that triggers if you, the victim, choose to move. However, you have no way of knowing this is happening unless someone tells you or unless you read up on it online... So the initial response is extreme frustration. We believe that giving the victim counter gameplay is VERY fun -- but that we should not place a 'burden of knowledge' on them figuring out what that gameplay might be. That's why we like Dark Binding and Black Shield (both of which have bait and/or 'dodge' counter gameplay that is VERY obvious), but not Rupture, which is not obvious.


This is something i've pondered over, I play melee dps/hybrid, and the game gets harder every 2 weeks, cause i have too walk the fine steps between armor and damage. At the sametime keep track of which champions I am strong enough to engage.

Its life or death for a melee dps.

I think the game gets harder every 2 weeks when a new champion gets released. Which could result in the same situation as "Burden of Knowledge" like I barely face good trundles, and when one comes along he just eats me and I dont even know what his eating skill does, (requires me too readup on)

For an estimate where I am ingame, i'm around 1500 elo on eu with around 1k games


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Moofles

Senior Member

05-30-2011

"Anti-Combo
This one is bad. This is essentially when one ability you have diminishes the effectiveness of another in a frustrating manner. Some examples:
- Giving a character a 'break-on-damage' CC with a DOT (yes, warlocks have this, but they tuned it to make it not anti-combo much at all)
- With Warriors in WoW -- they need to get rage by taking damage so that they can use abilities and gain threat -- but parry and dodge, which are key to staying alive, make them lose out on critical early fight rage. So, by gearing as a better tank, you become a worse tank in another dimension -- anti combo!
- With old warrior talent trees in WoW, revenge would give you a stun -- but stunned enemies cannot hit you and cause rage gain... So this talent actually reduced your tanking capability a lot in some sense! Anti-combo!"
Why are you *****ing about WoW when you should be making A LOT more arguments tied into DoTA, where your arguments may apply.

"Situationally Moderate:Horrify + fear kiting from a competent warlock who outgears you in WoW. Guess what? You die before getting to react, while watching it in slow motion!"
3 things...
1. OUTGEARS YOU!!!
2. competent, so you're ******ed?
3. You have more than enough time to react and punish the warlock IF you aren't ******ed.

"This is a VERY common pattern amongst hardcore novice game designers. This pattern is when you do a complex mechanic that creates gameplay -- ONLY IF the victim understands what is going on. Rupture is a great example -- with Rupture in DOTA, you receive a DOT that triggers if you, the victim, choose to move. However, you have no way of knowing this is happening unless someone tells you or unless you read up on it online... So the initial response is extreme frustration. We believe that giving the victim counter gameplay is VERY fun -- but that we should not place a 'burden of knowledge' on them figuring out what that gameplay might be. That's why we like Dark Binding and Black Shield (both of which have bait and/or 'dodge' counter gameplay that is VERY obvious), but not Rupture, which is not obvious."

HOW IS IT NOT OBVIOUS!!! You are bleeding out like a 16 year old girl on her period at the prom, you have to have a mental capacity of a wood termite to not notice.

My points aside other than saying you are hands down the most stupid developer, and you shame others for how stupid you are. You are basicly saying that this game is for 12 year olds who can't handle being punished therefore NEVER learning and staying at the level of stupid while playing this game.

I feel like posting your whole developer post on the blizzard support boards, just to see how many people have the biggest giggle about how stupid you are. AGAIN can't stress enough how stupid you are sir.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Joeofthefallen

Senior Member

05-31-2011

tell us how you really feel moofles.


Then go see your shrink.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

jedidioh

Senior Member

05-31-2011

Quote:
Zileas:
*
Non-Reliability
Skills are tools. Players count on them to do a job. When a skill is highly unreliable, we have to overpower it to make it 'satisfying enough'. Let me give you an example: Let's say Kayle's targeted invulnerability ult had a 95% chance of working, and a 5% chance of doing nothing when cast. We'd have to make it a LOT stronger to make it 'good enough' because you could not rely upon it... and it would be a lot less fun. Random abilities have this problem on reliability -- they tend to be a lot less satisfying, so you have to overpower them a lot more. Small amounts of randomness can add excitement and drama, but it has a lot of downsides. There are other examples of non-reliability, but randomness is the most obvious one. Abilities that require peculiar situations to do their jobs tend to run into the same problems, such as Tryndamere's shout that only slows when targets are facing away from him.


Cannon Barrage


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Thivus

Senior Member

05-31-2011

Quote:
jedidioh:
Cannon Barrage


They nerfed it's range in the hopes it would be more reliable



lol@that though


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Rossa Auster

Senior Member

05-31-2011

Why was this abomination of bad game design dug up? Just let it die already.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

aricias

Member

06-01-2011

Omg removing flash page 60!