Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

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Viro Melchior

Senior Member

01-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
I should clarify the example, but I'm specifically opposed to abilities where when you use them, you aren't really sure if thats how you were supposed to use it, or abilities that throw so many effects on, that it starts to become very vague what the 'right' use cases are and when.
So...

An ability that:
Targets the farthest away enemy with 800 range.
Deals more damage the further away from the target you are
But gives the target a move speed buff equal to the damage done for X seconds
And heals all near you or the target (friends and enemies), except you and the target for 33% of the damage done.
And lowers all your other cooldowns by 50%.

Ideal case would be "if the enemy is almost dead and a long way away, surrounded by nobody, or by high-%-hp enemies, and I have no enemies wounded around me, and my other abilities are off cooldown.
Other situations would be using it with no champion nearby just to refresh other cooldowns, or hitting it when an enemy was nearby for almost no effect just for the cooldowns and healing anyone else nearby, etc.

*brainhurt*


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Hotarukin

Senior Member

01-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
That really depends on how farmed karthus is. It seldom happens that way. Because its rare, karthus gets a huge amount of fun from it, and its merely annoying to the victims. If this was standard practice, it would be something else entirely.
I would argue that early game, his ult is extremely antifun. I have to play MUCH less aggressively than I usually do, because of teh knowledge that he's always able to hit me for ~300-400 depending on how fed he is, from level 6 on. By the time team fights start happening, he's already been capable of taking 1/3 of my health away while he's the full map away for most of the game. At lower Elo it's REALLY hard to stop that from steamrolling us.


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Viro Melchior

Senior Member

01-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotarukin View Post
I would argue that early game, his ult is extremely antifun. I have to play MUCH less aggressively than I usually do, because of teh knowledge that he's always able to hit me for ~300-400 depending on how fed he is, from level 6 on. By the time team fights start happening, he's already been capable of taking 1/3 of my health away while he's the full map away for most of the game. At lower Elo it's REALLY hard to stop that from steamrolling us.
Karthus is a champion that shows how many people don't understand what counter-building is.

A good Karthus will rush 2 things: Tear of the Goddess and Sorc Boots.
With 34 magic penetration, he'll be doing 100% to anyone that hasn't invested in any MR yet, and the tear promotes his ability spam for his laning viability.

Level 1 Requiem is "only" 250 damage (not 300-400). If he's picked up a bit of AP as well, say a Blasting Wand (+28 damage or about 10%), he's doing 278 per hit. And having gotten 2565g that fast is nearly impossible.
So let's stick with the 250 damage scenario. The reason he's doing this much is that he is pretending your MR is ZERO.

Solution? Pick up a Null-Magic Mantle (or Negatron Cloak if you prefer the bigger investment). You can build the Mantle into Mercury Treads (pretty useful all the time), Chalice of Harmony, Hexdrinker, Deathfire Grasp, Aegis of the Legion, and a few more items. Every champion has *something* useful to pick. And the 24 Magic Resistance you get will mean that instead of .85 MR, you will have 21.25 MR.
And guess what, that knocks off 44 damage from his ultimate AND helps you against the magic damage from your lane enemies as well.

This 400g investment retains it's ENTIRE value at dropping all damage from Karthus (unless he hits you with his wall too) until he gets a Haunting Guise or Void Staff. And how can you pretend that 400g for a 20% damage reduction isn't worth doing? Sure it slows your build down, but the point of the game is that you shouldn't be able to just build exactly what you want every time.


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TehOwn

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Senior Member

01-12-2011

By the way, there's lots of counters to Karthus' ult, so I fail to see how it is Anti-fun.

Any heal with Soraka's being the obvious one.
Sivir's shield, although not sure how it works there.
Urgot, Udyr, Morde, Sion, Lux, Janna and Morgana's shields. Last three being best as they can be put on anyone.
Shen's Ult and Feint.
Kayle ult.
Trynd ult.
Anivia Egg, although not really a counter as you have no control.
Zhonya's Hourglass.
Magic Resistance.
Summoner Heal.
Sanguine Pool.
Then there's MR increasing skills such as Morde's metal shards, Galio's Bulwark, Yi's Meditation, Rammus' defensive ball curl.
Damage mitigation such as Garen's Courage and Gragas' Drunken Rage.
Nasus' ult for increasing his HP temporarily.
And last but not at all least... ZILEAN'S ULT!

p.s. I played Karthus last game. **** Zilean...

Edit: Above post, you cannot build a Null Magic Mantle into a Deathfire Grasp.
See here, I did most of the work on the Item section, so please use it: Null Magic Mantle


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Viro Melchior

Senior Member

01-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by TehOwn View Post
By the way, there's lots of counters to Karthus' ult, so I fail to see how it is Anti-fun.

Any heal with Soraka's being the obvious one.
Sivir's shield, although not sure how it works there.
Urgot, Udyr, Morde, Sion, Lux, Janna and Morgana's shields. Last three being best as they can be put on anyone.
Shen's Ult and Feint.
Kayle ult.
Trynd ult.
Anivia Egg, although not really a counter as you have no control.
Zhonya's Hourglass.
Magic Resistance.
Summoner Heal.
Sanguine Pool.
Then there's MR increasing skills such as Morde's metal shards, Galio's Bulwark, Yi's Meditation, Rammus' defensive ball curl.
Damage mitigation such as Garen's Courage and Gragas' Drunken Rage.
Nasus' ult for increasing his HP temporarily.
And last but not at all least... ZILEAN'S ULT!

p.s. I played Karthus last game. **** Zilean...

Edit: Above post, you cannot build a Null Magic Mantle into a Deathfire Grasp.
See here, I did most of the work on the Item section, so please use it: Null Magic Mantle
The item database shows DFG when you select the Mantle. I was just reading off that. It's an item I haven't used in months, so didn't know for sure.
http://www.leagueoflegends.com/items#3128
And the best part...
I made the post, queued for a game, went against a Karthus.
Our Leblanc whined the whole game about how OP Karthus' ultimate was and how annoying he was. And when I advised him to pick up some MR, she repeatedly said "But then I won't do any damage". Even when informed that a single Negatron Cloak drops Karthus' damage between 28 and 29.5% until he gets additional magic penetration (or hits you with his wall). And that you can build it into Abyssal Scepter or Banshees Veil (which drops his ultimate to 0% damage when it's up).

Ignored the idiot when I (quite quickly) got tired of him raging and ignoring sound advice.


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SonicTheHedgedawg

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Senior Member

01-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
That really depends on how farmed karthus is. It seldom happens that way. Because its rare, karthus gets a huge amount of fun from it, and its merely annoying to the victims. If this was standard practice, it would be something else entirely.
is revive pantheon a similar story?


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Razeluxe

Senior Member

01-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
I should clarify the example, but I'm specifically opposed to abilities where when you use them, you aren't really sure if thats how you were supposed to use it, or abilities that throw so many effects on, that it starts to become very vague what the 'right' use cases are and when.
What would you say then about moving the slow-clearing to Q instead of E. To me that would make much more sense to put that on his "gap-closing" ability (Since he lacks a dash like many other Melee champs). Just something thats been floating around in the Garen threads lately.


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Karnikula

Senior Member

01-13-2011

Maybe you can answer me some questions on caitlyn and maybe even why it was designed this way.

A) Caitlyns Q and R scale with her AD, but her W and E scale only on AP (which are her defensive abilities) where does that fit into any design? Why not remove the AP part entirely? Garen's Ultimate doesn't scale with AP either.

B) Caitlyns Trap doesn't serve a purpose other than Nidalees trap just that - you can't place as many (just TWO !!), the 1,5 second snare (if the enemy isn't wearing merc treads) doesn't really serfe much purpose in most situations, usually setting the trap up while fleeing will make you less likely to survive, and you can't preset the trap well because of the # limit.

C) Caitlyns E ability (the net and knockback) is outright terrible, there's exaclty ONE situation in which that ability serves it's full purpose, that's a visible enemy charging you straight on that you can hit on range. Otherwise you'll most likely still end up dead (using it in melee) or only use the knockback effect to get over small obstacles/terrain (which nullifies the net-effect usually). There's only 2 uses (and one of them is incredibly anti fun because it denies you killing your target) for that net (and in both cases you don't use the knockback) That is 1) last hitting an enemy in an emergency - chance of happening 0,0001% and 2) slowing an enemy for your team so they can kill him (without you obviously) which is also hard to do because your net hits minions (WTF?!) and the slow usually doesn't last long enough to be of much an effect.

So there is TWO standard uses for this ability (and it's a pure utility ability so it should actually serve more purposes)
That is
1) knock yourself over a wall
2) slow an enemy that is charging at you at high range and get away better (usually you'd get away ANYWAYS because said champion is visible and at high range)

D) Her passive is uber strong in early laning but loses purpose entirely in teamfights and endgame (where the fights aren't as staged). It's pretty **** useful for jungling though - which I like a lot. Also her passive makes the player think "I need attackspeed" while you clearly need high Attack Damage to get anything out of your champ.

E) As sniper, high-ranged physical champion she has only TWO offensive abilities (Q and R) while her two DEFENSIVE abilities (isn't she supposed to be high-range and not need that much defense?) are so underwhelming and bad that she dies anyways once you attack her with anything. This creates a champion that overall has bad damage output AND bad survival AND bad utility which creates a terrible addition to your team.

That's some major design flaws.

Also bugs:

Ultimate can crit and then deal damage as if it were a basic attack.
Ultimate can be dodged / Pantheon blocked. (haven't had this in a while though, dunno if you already fixed it, don't think so)

best regards, loving this game - Karn


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fruitysalad

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Recruiter

01-14-2011

Hi Zileas, please take a look at this: http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...d.php?t=446652 thread when you get the chance, it is directly related to (what I and hopefully many other players) something that is, I think, distinctly anti-fun. I even quoted you (page 2)! Here's hoping for a response.

Thanks


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TehOwn

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Senior Member

01-15-2011

Come on Zileas, screw the patch, just give us some kind of response!