Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

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Zileas

VP of Game Design

01-12-2011
236 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by David12596 View Post
Hey Zileas, i would like to know, what do you think of the "curse mechanic" for this champion suggestion I made? I got the idea for the curse mechanic really from Morgana "Soul Shackles".

Some people say he is like the Invoker from Dota. I tried Dota a few days ago and the invoker is way to complex in terms of a design, at least for me lol. I can see where they are coming from a little when they say that though because of how i have the debuffs work.

http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...=435697&page=2
I replied. I think you should distill down the interesting parts and cut the uninteresting parts. Some of what you did is cool and creates gameplay. Some is just complex. retain the stuff that creates gameplay usually.


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David12596

Senior Member

01-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
I replied. I think you should distill down the interesting parts and cut the uninteresting parts. Some of what you did is cool and creates gameplay. Some is just complex. retain the stuff that creates gameplay usually.
Thank you Zileas


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Seyunx

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Senior Member

01-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Extremexeon View Post
Anti-Fun > Fun
I made the 500th down vote for this guy, do I get a cookie Zileas?


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Razeluxe

Senior Member

01-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Conflicted Purpose
This one is not a super strong anti-pattern, but sometimes it's there. A good example of this would be a 500 damage nuke that slows enemy attack speed by 50% for 10 seconds (as opposed to say, 20%), on a 20 second cooldown. At 50%, this is a strong combat initiation disable... but at 500 damage it's a great finisher on someone who is running... but you also want to use it early to get the disable -- even though you won't have it avail by the end of combat usually to finish. This makes players queasy about using the ability much like in the optimization case, but it's a slightly different problem. If the ability exists for too many different purposes on an explicit basis, it becomes confusing. this is different from something like blink which can be used for many purposes, but has a clear basic purpose -- in that place, players tend to just feel creative instead.
Im Garen and I see an Ashe wandering the forests and I want to kill her. I go at her, and she slows me. Do I
A) Use Judgement to clear the slow
B) Wait to use Judgement to kill her

The problem with A is that after you clear the slow and get to her, you cant kill her because youre on CD. The problem with B is that you will probably never get to her, as Volley is like 4 sec CD.

Your move bro.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

01-12-2011
237 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razeluxe View Post
Im Garen and I see an Ashe wandering the forests and I want to kill her. I go at her, and she slows me. Do I
A) Use Judgement to clear the slow
B) Wait to use Judgement to kill her

The problem with A is that after you clear the slow and get to her, you cant kill her because youre on CD. The problem with B is that you will probably never get to her, as Volley is like 4 sec CD.

Your move bro.
Conflicted purpose generally has to do with things like "Improves the damage of the enemy by 100%, but silences them".

This is just a skill that can be used to escape or attack. Those end up feeling pretty good in either case and the choice is interesting, not confusing.


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Anxy

Senior Member

01-12-2011

"un Fails to Exceed Anti-Fun
Anti-fun is the negative experience your opponents feel when you do something that prevents them from 'playing their game' or doing activities they consider fun. While everything useful you can do as a player is likely to cause SOME anti-fun in your opponents, it only becomes a design issue when the 'anti-fun' created on your use of a mechanic is greater than your fun in using the mechanic. Dark Binding is VERY favorable on this measurement, because opponents get clutch dodges just like you get clutch hits, so it might actually create fun on both sides, instead of fun on one and weak anti-fun on another. On the other hand, a strong mana burn is NOT desirable -- if you drain someone to 0 you feel kinda good, and they feel TERRIBLE -- so the anti-fun is exceeded by the fun. This is important because the goal of the game is for players to have fun, so designers should seek abilities that result in a net increase of fun in the game. Basic design theory, yes? "



D: Karthus presses R while dead, 3 people die. karthus has fun, your team mates don't.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

01-12-2011
238 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anxy View Post
"un Fails to Exceed Anti-Fun
Anti-fun is the negative experience your opponents feel when you do something that prevents them from 'playing their game' or doing activities they consider fun. While everything useful you can do as a player is likely to cause SOME anti-fun in your opponents, it only becomes a design issue when the 'anti-fun' created on your use of a mechanic is greater than your fun in using the mechanic. Dark Binding is VERY favorable on this measurement, because opponents get clutch dodges just like you get clutch hits, so it might actually create fun on both sides, instead of fun on one and weak anti-fun on another. On the other hand, a strong mana burn is NOT desirable -- if you drain someone to 0 you feel kinda good, and they feel TERRIBLE -- so the anti-fun is exceeded by the fun. This is important because the goal of the game is for players to have fun, so designers should seek abilities that result in a net increase of fun in the game. Basic design theory, yes? "

D: Karthus presses R while dead, 3 people die. karthus has fun, your team mates don't.

That really depends on how farmed karthus is. It seldom happens that way. Because its rare, karthus gets a huge amount of fun from it, and its merely annoying to the victims. If this was standard practice, it would be something else entirely.


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Razeluxe

Senior Member

01-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Conflicted purpose generally has to do with things like "Improves the damage of the enemy by 100%, but silences them".

This is just a skill that can be used to escape or attack. Those end up feeling pretty good in either case and the choice is interesting, not confusing.
I see what youre saying but I disagree. In the example I provided, you are "conflicted" on how to use the skill, or what its "purpose" is in hte situation


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

01-12-2011
239 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razeluxe View Post
I see what youre saying but I disagree. In the example I provided, you are "conflicted" on how to use the skill, or what its "purpose" is in hte situation
I should clarify the example, but I'm specifically opposed to abilities where when you use them, you aren't really sure if thats how you were supposed to use it, or abilities that throw so many effects on, that it starts to become very vague what the 'right' use cases are and when.


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TehOwn

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

01-12-2011

Zileas, I have something to point out.

Rammus' recommended build advises getting Ninja Tabi and Thornmail.

But if you dodge an attack (12% chance), it does no damage and therefore no damage return reducing the effectiveness of Thornmail and possibly Defensive Ball Curl.

Isn't this a bit anti-combo?

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Another but not so clear example is one of Unclear Optimisation.

This stems from the simple fact that the best way to use Anivia's Flash Frost is to let it ever so barely pass through the target before detonating it, which takes a lot of skill to do reliably.

The trouble is, that it's not necessarily obvious (in the heat of battle) if you accomplished, excepting if you follow up with a Frostbite and notice the difference in damage. (chilled or non-chilled target)

This may be intended, to reward the most confident with a double damage Frostbite.

However, it is certainly anti-fun to fire that Frostbite that deals a half as much as you expected purely because you didn't realise you screwed up the Flash Frost.

Suggested improvement: Make it more obvious when you stun a chilled target. Perhaps a sound-effect or unique ice exploding effect when the Flash Frost stun hits a chilled target.

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And how about the Burden of Knowledge on Nunu's Ult: Absolute Zero?

Most new players don't realise many things about it:
1. It will still do damage if interrupted.
2. The damage dealt is based on channel duration.
3. You SHOULD interrupt it if the enemy is about to leave the AoE.

Suggested improvement: Add some clarification in Nunu's ult, explain what happens when interrupted or cancelled.

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Let me just say that Gangplank's Ult is a fantastic example of Non-Reliability which actually worked in a positive way.

Extremely powerful when you get lucky but still useful when a single cannonball hits. Frustrating to Gangplank when all cannonballs miss, but epically rewarding to the relieved player(s) who were targeted.