Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

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Hot Death

Member

01-04-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Yeah, I think that most games in the MOBA genre will follow our leadership and drop or severely de-emphasize deny. HON is de-emphasizing, and I would not be shocked if some of the upcoming Asian games and/or DOTA2 dropped it as well. It's just a good decision, that much is clear now.
I was entirely against LoL's decision not to have denies.

Then I read your blurb about it.

Then I sat and thought about it.

Then I played a few games of HoN ex post facto.

And, well .. yup! You guys were right.


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Zerg Overmind

Senior Member

01-04-2011

You guys at riot contradicted some of your characters such as Galio who has all ranged attacks and is melee and Kassidin who has the same problem as Galio


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

01-05-2011
228 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Oliveira View Post
DotA/HoN have champs who's kits are infinitely better designed and more unique than anything in LoL.

Zileas I challenge you to come up with a champ that isn't another copy and past like Lux/Cass/Caitlyn, but something tells me you will hide behind an anti-pattern and keep this game stagnant with repeating what has already existed for months and months.

If you can actually do this, i will buy that champ and their 2 skins bundle with RP, that is how confident I am that you will NEVER stop recycling these garbage champs.
Uh, those are characters that play pretty distinctively dude. I think they are arguments for why remixing a bunch of basic mechanics in ways that have not been done before can create an overall gameplay experience that is quite different. Cass especailly, but Lux and Caitlyn have very distinctive play feels.


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Shaella

Senior Member

01-05-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Uh, those are characters that play pretty distinctively dude. I think they are arguments for why remixing a bunch of basic mechanics in ways that have not been done before can create an overall gameplay experience that is quite different. Cass especailly, but Lux and Caitlyn have very distinctive play feels.
Cass and Caitlyn also have the most underwhelming ultimates in the game that take away a lot of the fun of playing them


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

01-05-2011
229 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot Death View Post
Oh that game.

Why, why do you have to bring up old wounds.

*sets everything to holy war / nuke and pave to try desperately to make the game last fewer than 7,000 turns*
Yah, we won't be doing a single player turn based strategy game here, but I'd really like to resurrect one of these some day for fun. Perhaps I can take a 2 year sabbatical and do one some day, ahah. 15 person team, etc... Well, maybe in 10 or 15 years from now ;p


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

01-05-2011
230 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaella View Post
Cass and Caitlyn also have the most underwhelming ultimates in the game that take away a lot of the fun of playing them
Sure, caitlyns Ult is a little weak. But what are you referring to anyway?

I Agree Cass isn't for everyone much like Cryo isn't for everyone, but I think she's pretty fun if you get the basics down.


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Shaella

Senior Member

01-05-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Sure, caitlyns Ult is a little weak. But what are you referring to anyway?

I Agree Cass isn't for everyone much like Cryo isn't for everyone, but I think she's pretty fun if you get the basics down.
As a personal thing, Cassiopeia's ultimate drives me crazy because of nonreliablity issues. Oh my god if I could count the number of times I've been demolished because "Nope! Slow! trololo" Part of it is that the facing her mechanic is kinda broken, in that turning is instantaneous and half the of the skill's usefulness is determined by lag

Caitlyn's ult getting dodged, and stopped by pantheon's passive are the kind of things that make it feel really underwhelming.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

01-05-2011
231 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaella View Post
As a personal thing, Cassiopeia's ultimate drives me crazy because of nonreliablity issues. Oh my god if I could count the number of times I've been demolished because "Nope! Slow! trololo" Part of it is that the facing her mechanic is kinda broken, in that turning is instantaneous and half the of the skill's usefulness is determined by lag

Caitlyn's ult getting dodged, and stopped by pantheon's passive are the kind of things that make it feel really underwhelming.
Yeah perhaps the slow needs to be larger. I find the pattern works OK for Equilibrium strike...

I'll ask someone to fix the pantheon interaction and the dodges. That's super lame.


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Shaella

Senior Member

01-05-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Yeah perhaps the slow needs to be larger. I find the pattern works OK for Equilibrium strike...

I'll ask someone to fix the pantheon interaction and the dodges. That's super lame.
I think it works better on Equilibrium strike than it does on Petrifying gaze because of the non-ultimate vs ultimate level, the slow increase helped some though.


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KillinUrDoodz

Senior Member

01-05-2011

An observation:

The closer someone is to an enemy champion, the less dissatisfied they are when they die to that champion. People hate, absolutely hate, dying to Karthus who is on the other side of the map, or Lux who lasers from a screen away. People are less frustrated when they die to a close range attack, like Cho'Gath's Feast or Shaco's ganks.

I think this is because people feel that distance should equal safety. In most circumstances, safety is correlated with distance very heavily, but there are other factors at work. Most people don't understand positional details beyond distance and line of sight. Even that takes a while! It takes newbies quite a while to understand bushes and how to deal with them. Distance is the simplest positional mechanic. It's the one everyone thinks they understand. They think "Distance = Safety".

And when it does not work the way people think it should, they get frustrated. There is always excitement about getting the kill with Lux's laser at long range, or Pantheon getting a beautiful man drop on an enemy team. I think the positives out-weigh the negatives, especially since better players overcome this poor intuition, just like new players overcome the urge to face check bushes.

Question: Will you be coming out with more champions that violate "Distance = Safety"?