Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

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Weazelghast

Member

12-09-2010

Hello Zileas,

I rarely post on these forums, but I read up daily; Additionally, I have read this thread in its entirety. I got to tell you, its *beyond* insightful and I feel obligated to express my gratitude for your explanations into the inner workings and planning of this game.

Thank you and happy holidays!


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

12-09-2010
195 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felathar View Post
Is there anyway you can create hard champion mechanics without breaking your so called "Anti-Pattern"?
All champions violate anti-patterns, it's just a matter of degree. But I think that Anivia, Lux, Rammus and Irelia are very hard to play at a master level, but don't violate anti-patterns in a major way.

Quote:
Oh and by the way... Tryndamere violates a lot of those Anti P rules you dictated. Any answer to this?
Not really, just on the ult, which is a long invulnerability and thus can be quite frustrating (Espec when combined with his absurd power curve). He's a berserker kit, which is designed to increase tension around 0 life. There are a number of plausible responses to him.


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SonicTheHedgedawg

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Senior Member

12-09-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
No, the jungler right now is roughly on par with the duo lane. The solo will still be ahead. We are talking about an 8% nerf to solo xp, removal of global XP from dragon (gold reward increase), and a reduction of turret global XP (gold reward increase).

- Zileas
I like this.

gold is fun! ^_^


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Vindrel

Senior Member

12-09-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vindrel View Post
I've always been curious why Zilean isn't classified as "Anti-Fun" I honestly don't know what is more anti fun than a man with a ghost, GA on a 24 second CD, and quite possibly the easiest lane harassment tool ever imagined. He is one of the most infuriating champs to lane against and is the most infuriating champ to attack. Why bother attack him when he'll just get back up run away and hit Q and click you again.

Could you at least find a way to make him something other than low risk/high reward
ANSWER ME DOMON

Or at least give me your thoughts on the matter


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Gigiwoo

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Senior Member

12-09-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigiwoo View Post
Anti-fun exceeds Fun

Early Interaction - Penalty from Death

The design mechanics strongly discourage early game interaction because the penalty/risk for dying early is amazingly harsh. Therefore, instead of romping around the map, trying to find opponents and have some early interaction (fun), players tend to hug towers or protect junglers, hoping nothing happens (not fun). Why? Because the anti-fun from dying MASSIVELY outweighs the fun you get from the successful early gank.

This problem extends into the early laning phase as well. Players focus on last hits and harassment (not fun) instead of fighting each other (fun) because the anti-fun of dying is SOOO harsh. The penalties include way more than just the kill gold. It's the loss of gold/xp from laning plus the opponent getting free gold/xp while your gone. It's like a 5x whammy!
Any thoughts on this Zilean? Didn't see any and was curious if you think the early game should be more engaging or if you are happy with the way it runs currently.


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Gigiwoo

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Senior Member

12-09-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
No, the jungler right now is roughly on par with the duo lane. The solo will still be ahead. We are talking about an 8% nerf to solo xp, removal of global XP from dragon (gold reward increase), and a reduction of turret global XP (gold reward increase).

- Zileas
This is a step in the right direction, but it will probably need to be slightly larger, to give the 2v1 laners a way to compete effectively. If <Insert AOE champ> is level 6 and you are level 4, it's a hard road. 8% is not a huge delta. If a solo laner (+jungler) can easily hold off 2 champs (anti-fun) and get superior XP AND gold, then the system is borked.

Another idea is to split the gold slightly between two laning partners. Ex: Last hit earns 90% of the gold, nearby laning partner also earns 20%. It's a minor net increase of 10% total gold, but achieves 2 things: 1) support/tank characters that struggle with last hits get help and 2) offsets the 2v1 laner penalty. This also encourages teams to work together (fun & teamwork), instead of rush in and minion hoard.

Gigiwoo

PS - the gold option would clearly need tweaking for > 2 laners killing minions.


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EasymodeX

Senior Member

12-09-2010

Quote:
Actually, the goal with this stuff is to get people into a point where they are getting strategic engagement instead of basic learning, which we feel is more interesting and fun, and allows them to key into the team aspect of the game more successfully... which makes the game fun.
The game is already heavily slanted to the "team aspect". This, in the end, reduces the permutations of strategy available to the team to win, which makes the game less interesting and fun.

Quote:
If you have no idea WTF is going on, it's very difficult to be strategically engaged.
For newbies.

For a player that has broken past whatever level of learning curve the game has, then the strategic variety on both the individual (Mana Burn) and team level diminishes.

This is why it is often said that LoL caters to newbies and/or casuals -- the game has a low level of depth for individual mechanics. While Riot has done a great job trying to diversify the set of "positive reward, positive feedback" abilities among the champs, there are practical limits with what you can do when you handicap yourself in that way.

One thing you don't mention in your original post is this:

How much fun is it when you perma-kite an Anti-Mage with Furion, by countering his fed Manaburn x Blink through Eul's, Sheepstick, tree-owning him during Blink cooldown, and a Dagger.

The more cheese and lame a particular mechanic is, the more entertaining it is to crush it.

The more dangerous a fed Voidwalker is with perma stun, the more hilarious it is when your entire team has sheepsticks and roll his face when you see him.

Terrorblade ult + Dagon. Pure winsauce.

When the "positive" and the "negative" mechanics are severe, then the game is more exciting and interesting for advanced players. Hence, the concept of handicaps and -EM for casual play.


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Apothem

Senior Member

12-09-2010

So here's my opinion about the 2 anti-fun things about Anivia:
Rebirth: There are plentiful of times where sometimes, one (people who are new) thinks that they are going to score a kill against Anivia. As soon as she "dies", she becomes an egg. This can be frustrating to people because think of it this way: One tries to destroy that egg with half or less than half life, but fails. As a result, either Anivia will somehow get away OR kill the person who tried to kill her. A similar situation I faced when I played Anivia (when she was free for a week) was when an Udyr was chasing me when I had about a bar or two of life left. At the same time, my teammates were trying to catch up to him. He succeeding in "killing" me, but of course I turned into an egg. As a result, my team mates caught up and killed Udyr. I'm sure that really peeved him off. One solution to this problem might be to have some animation that shows that Anivia can revive, instead of requiring to click her in order to see if she has recently revived.

I know you can argue by saying, "well, Zilean also has an ultimate that revives!" Well, I dislike Zilean's ultimate as well but the difference here is that Zilean gets his revive at 6 AND can spam it more. All I have to say to that is: Yes. And I dislike it with a passion, much more than Anivia's revive. The difference between Anivia and Zilean, though, is that Anivia can nuke harder and carry. And when the two are in the same game, it just ruins my (and maybe other's) day.

In higher levels, Anivia's rebirth is something that is less important, but is annoying including in team fights. For instance, one can "kill Anivia" just to have everyone on her team start defending (either offensively and/or through Zilean's Revive or Kayle's Intervention) her like crazy. As a result, she can revive again and "destroy" the other team.

Crystallize: This skill is really good at a) blocking escapes and b) escaping (allies or not). The main problem I have with this is that it helps her escape way too many times and saves her allies from death just as much. I can probably flash pass it, but will I always have flash on whenever she does this? Should I seriously risk committing suicide by jumping over that wall? I think not. This skill is much worse than Trundles as Trundle's "wall" seems to have a smaller radius compared to Anivia. This also can help her revive; right before you finish her off with ignite or some other skill, she walls you away from getting to her, dies, and safely revives. Another kill lost.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

12-09-2010
196 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigiwoo View Post
Anti-fun exceeds Fun

Early Interaction - Penalty from Death

The design mechanics strongly discourage early game interaction because the penalty/risk for dying early is amazingly harsh. Therefore, instead of romping around the map, trying to find opponents and have some early interaction (fun), players tend to hug towers or protect junglers, hoping nothing happens (not fun). Why? Because the anti-fun from dying MASSIVELY outweighs the fun you get from the successful early gank.

This problem extends into the early laning phase as well. Players focus on last hits and harassment (not fun) instead of fighting each other (fun) because the anti-fun of dying is SOOO harsh. The penalties include way more than just the kill gold. It's the loss of gold/xp from laning plus the opponent getting free gold/xp while your gone. It's like a 5x whammy!
This is not an anti-fun thing, because laning is fun too, but it is an incentives problem. I actually think that casual lane kills would happen a lot more if early game escape and survival wasn't so easy.

- Zileas


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

12-09-2010
197 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
Terrorblade ult + Dagon. Pure winsauce.
Yes, I like being instagibbed from full health too. It's great in every game I've ever played. Love being hit by the AWP. Love being hit by rogue stunlock and death in WoW.

Instant kill scenarios that can be casually achieved are one of the greatest sources of frustration in games. If your argument in strategic depth, I think you are way off. Instagibbing someone is not depth, it's just cheesy. Satisfying for you certainly, but not hard to do, and VERY frustrating for your opponents.

I really dislike terrorblade's ult beacuse:
1) It can screw your teammates, which isn't cool
2) In many cases, it is not very strong
3) It is wildly overpowered in some scenarios, and can hard counter an entire character with the press of a button. Oh you had a lot of HP as a tank and had a role to perform? Now you dont! You are a fragile glass character who also has no DPS!
4) The anti-magic interactions are pretty odd.