Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

First Riot Post
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Zileas

VP of Game Design

12-08-2010
183 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hearteater View Post
I'd compare LeBlanc to Kass (and I do in the below linked feedback) and she is basically weaker than him. Yes she has higher potential burst, but she can't bring it to bear realistically. Force Pulse is easier to land, shorter CD in team fights, AoE, and better snare than Chains. Q for Q, Kass wins again with instantly applied silence. And when it comes to passive, -15% ability damage beats the image easily. I think given even the most amazing LeBlanc player, they will do better with Kassadin.

See feedback: http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...d.php?t=358874
Sure, I agree with that. LeBlanc is also slightly underpowered right now. In theory, she fills a slightly different role though.


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ErdoS The Wise

Senior Member

12-08-2010

@Zileas:

What is your opinion Continual spells channeled versus unchanneled

Unchanneled: Corki's gun thing, Garen's spin, Fiddle's ult (after channeling ofcourse), Morg's ult, Rammus ult, Kennen ult and plenty others

Channeled: Kat's ult, Pantheons HSS (i think), Miss fortune ult. cant really think of much more.

Well anyway as im sure u know unchanneled is uninterruptable, stuns and silences dont stop the abilities effectiveness while channeled skills are the most sensitive skills ever. Plus you can move and still have full effectiveness, and yes i know "working as intended" But do you feel some of the unchanneled skills are too powerful or the channeled ones too sensitive or this is all 100% fun?


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suddenZenith

Senior Member

12-08-2010

Back in dota I used to try new heroes on single player to learn their abilites and how to counter them. It removed the burden of knowledge from my shoulders.

I wonder if you guys ever thought about implementing a new mode where new players can try out every champion versus bots only. You are already doing it partially, with custom games and free champion rotation, but some champions very seldom appear in the rotations. For example Kassadin, who is very good at killing enemies who don't know what he can do, or Pantheon that can man-drop from all the way across the map and burst people into pieces.

I am almost certain that you guys at Riot have already discussed this possibility, but I see many advantages:

- The new players that wish to understand the game could do so much faster
- They could even buy those that they liked the most and that they want to play versus real people, which is not bad for business
- It would reduce burden of knowledge to a small factor, diminishing restrictions when it comes to champion creation

I know that many players liked the spice of spells like Juggernaut's Omnislash, Terrorblade's Sunder or the famous Blooseeker's Rupture. I also see that some dota-influenced spells have less impact that I would like, because of burden of knowledge. For example Rocket Grab: I would like it to be more ranged, but with slower missile speed, which would be easier to dodge but also more rewarding. With burden of knowledge reduced, it would allow more sophisticated mechanics, give more depth to the game, and accentuate the differences from one champion to another.

I know that I criticise alot, but I really like this game even if I think it can be better.


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SamuraiPanda

Senior Member

12-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Which is the most common way to build him...
You know, I was going to break down why that is the most common way, but I just don't feel like making a giant GP post in this thread (I'ma make my own thread eventually I guess). But I guess, personally, even though I build crit I still don't feel his Q is RNG based since I never RELY on getting one, I just adjust to the situation when it happens.

Quote:
Champions normally have a few stats -- attack, defense, spells, difficulty. there is a 5th category -- d ouchery... Gangplank get a 10. He's so incredibly frustrating to play against, between the deny, the potential for getting screwed on a lucky string on the ult, crits on Q, etc.
I've played a lot of GP games. One could say too many. The situation you're referring to is so ridiculously rare that you could easily make the same claim about any character getting "lucky crits" or "lucky dodges" in a row.

And let me just point out that GP is an incredibly bad solo (despite me soloing 90% of my games). People just don't realize that he has no damage output whatsoever, along with being squishy as hell. If he's laning vs any durable character thats running ignite, then he's in for one hell of a fight. I guarantee that for as frustrating as my denies are, its just as frustrating on my end if you know how to play against me.

Winning lanes with GP generally requires you to either outsmart the opponent or get lucky with crits. Only one of those two is consistently possible.


The reason I really enjoy GP can be summed up with the playstyle of "dance like a butterfly, sting like a bee". I enjoy moving around quickly and shooting with Qs, walking forward for an autoattack or two, moving back again, and being difficult to pin down due to my W. I've realized the major limitations to that playstyle, which are the limitations of GP himself, and THAT is what I'm hoping whatever upcoming changes he has will focus on. Making him "less frustrating" to play with/against should be secondary.


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Jon Talbain

Member

12-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Sure, I agree with that. LeBlanc is also slightly underpowered right now. In theory, she fills a slightly different role though.
What role would that be? Quite curious to hear.


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Xtchizobr

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Senior Member

12-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
I dont like 'sleep' or 'ae sleep'. The reason is that while powerful, it tends to interfere with DOTS and people who have different gameplans. You either piss off the AE sleep user when you break their sleep quickly, or your dot messes things up, or the invuln you put for .5 sec on the sleep upsets the guy trying to kill him. Just not well suited for a team game.
i thought that was one of the most brilliant aspects of game balance in EQ1, actually... playing an Enchanter was important and difficult, but extremely rewarding.

i think LoL needs stronger reasons for players to cooperate instead of just mashing buttons at the first thing that enters their range.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
We've broken these patterns numerous times. Sometimes for gain, sometimes out of error. I never said we did this stuff perfectly ;p
that's pretty shysty. disavowing all responsibility with a silly little disclaimer?

how about you fix your mistakes? at least the ones that you are made aware of


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
...
i did like my Frost Mage before BC came out. before i ragequit so hard because Frost Mages became so useless....


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Anodize

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Senior Member

12-08-2010

Quote:
EDIT: Oh, and if you're serious about removing flash, then my lack of faith in your definition of "fun" is completely founded. Few things trump the satisfaction of successfully juking a 5-man gank with 20 hp left, and I can't help but applaud a well-placed flash when I'm the one losing out on such a gank. This summoner skill is so integral to so many characters that removing it would ruin the utility of several champs overnight.
I don't understand how the fun you receive from escaping a 5 man gank exceeds the anti-fun the 5 people ganking you get. 5 > 1 in almost all cases, from a mathematical standpoint.

And you're saying you ENJOY someone escaping from you and four of your buddies ganking them? Lets get serious.

Just to add: Vlad's pool is the same way, pls nurf.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

12-08-2010
184 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by TiberiusAudley View Post
Not really sure if this qualifies, but... Let's say you have an opponent standing directly up against a wall (or in melee range of a tower) who is dealing heavy damage to someone within their range (or destroying the tower).

You are Alistar. The enemy is in headbutt range. The obvious choice in this situation is to headbutt the opponent.

However, because of either a bug or intentional design, Alistar will lunge to the wall, triggering headbutt to go on cooldown, dealing zero damage, and doing nothing to knock back the opponent.
I would call that a bug.


Quote:
Would this qualify as a "Deceptive Choice"? Because I cannot think of a better time to use Headbutt than to knock someone out of attacking range when they're standing within my range, but as long as they are hugging a wall, my Headbutt is unable to be used. If they are standing an Alistar length away from the wall, I will simply lunge through the wall and headbutt them.
Nope, that's just a bug ;p


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BLTbagger

Junior Member

12-08-2010

Would piping hot pizza be considered a false choice? You either sit there starving and waiting for it to cool down or you burn your tongue.

And I always thought Chinese food having rice and chopsticks was an anti-combo.

And that guy at work eating a tuna sandwich and stinking up the whole place. Just eat a ham sandwich or something. Anti-fun > fun.


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TiberiusAudley

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Adjudicator

12-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
I would call that a bug.




Nope, that's just a bug ;p
Plz fix so my Alistar doesn't get screwed over on Headbutt opportunities (will allow Alistar to operate a little bit better without Flash, as well, since it will make him more able to jump walls in certain areas.)