Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

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Dragonk

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Senior Member

12-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daikaze View Post
Armored Bear > Blind Monk

Hohums and Volibar should duke it out to determine which one is made. (It's gonna be the bear)
Armored bear=Blind Monk

Blind Monk first since Riot already has him, hes just frozen in carbonite. (Also since it has enough attention right now) Then maybe we can see about an armored bear.... Brolaf vid hints at armored bear <3 the destroyer of worlds.


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Anhi

Senior Member

12-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Sturm View Post
But won't giving solo laners an XP penalty only increase the necessity of jungling? If you do that, then fast junglers like Olaf, Warwick and Rammus can possibly out-level solo lane champions, and then ganks from the jungle will be even more powerful. Maybe I'm missing the point of this change, but would you care to explain?

Also, I see solo laning as a necessity not because of the experience gain but because of the farming potential. The way I see it, something has to be done about the potential farm a solo lane can receive before jungling becomes less of a necessity, but that's just my opinion.
Right now the Solo lane has a double benefit. You gain Lvls AND farm. Its not a trade so it doesn't seem strategic. There's no reason NOT to jungle. If you had less xp and didn't pull ahead of the duo lanes but gained more gold then you would be forced to make a choice. Perhaps having a jungler wouldn't be the better choice. It would also create timing windows for group fights via items. You could initiate a group fight when you know that your items are STRONGER even though you are still the same lvl.


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Amadi

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Senior Member

12-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
It wont be as much in the mid-december patch. We are reducing global XP rewards in general, and giving solo laners an XP penalty (no effect on junglers). We feel this will make double duo lane viable, or closer to it anyway.
I hope this hit is mainly on Dragon, as opposed to Baron and Towers. Taking down Baron is a team effort more than a jungler-effort as-is, and very rarely something taken solo. Towers, if anything, should award more to make dual-laning worthwhile.

The main issue with having a jungler, of course, is the lack of risk for having one. Assume a strong sololaner, such as Mordekaiser - Even if you weren't falling behind him much in XP, you wouldn't necessarily win that lane. Do you think one can towerdive him or push the tower while he's defending it and nuking all creeps/you?

In DotA jungling was slower than laning, and took away from sololanes by stopping creep-pulling. It was also easily counterable with wards, (Wards stopped creep spawns in DotA.) and was really risky. Further, it did not give you access to buffs that allowed powerful ganks. It just gave you gold and XP. Not only this, but strong pusher-lane could, and would, punish your solo-lane by getting the tower down early, or by completely and utterly zoning him through superior ability to deny. And DotA didn't even have dragon to kill. Even with all these factors, jungling was done in DotA, not just in each and every game.


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BJSV

Senior Member

12-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Of course, if you place constraints, you have less options. The question should be -- can we make a game as fun at it's best as (insert unconstrained game here) while being more accessible and less stressful?

In general, I think we can. Design is about optimization -- making better choices...
Well to be honest i like your new champs more and those 1350 champs like Nasus, Sion, Singed... but some champs just seem to have it all and they act and are played as they really do have everything they need. So i can say that i love the direction you are going, but that place from where you come looks like a mess and it should get cleaned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
LeBlanc is really good at chasing and finishing, and she's also better against a tanky melee team. She's not as good at reliable sustained dps and she' cant AE stun.
Yes she is good at chasing and finishing but for that to happen you need a team that can make in 5v4. Also last few times i played her, tanks are actually really big problem. Every tank that has even a slow can kill you with ease. And one more thing about LeBlanc is her E, its a skill shot with short range and long CD with no guarantee that it will even snare the target. Its dmg isnt so good also, but for a CC spell it shouldnt be, so if you could just look into this spell and try to buff it a little, it would be really nice


EDIT: I would like to ask you how much slow is just too much slow?
I kind of love the fact that there is small number of taunt and stun spells in LoL, but the slow... out of 65 champs, 35 have some kind of slow, red buff, rylais and frozen mallet can be used by everyone. Now i never had problem with stun in dota (note that in dota everyone had stun), but slow in LoL is just too much. At least when you are stunned you know that you died cause you couldnt do anything, while on the other hand slow gives you false impression that you can actually stand and fight, or try to run, or try to chase, or do something else, and than it slowly becomes really frustrating. Running but not being able to run is just wrong. In many situations i just want to give up and let enemies kill me cause you know you cant run away so why even try. It really is giving you false hope for salvation. Especially when you know you have cleanse and merc boots, but you cant do anything cause of constant slow. It just makes you use summoners in vain.
If you could try and look at some champs that really dont need slow. Like Xin for example, he slows cause he charges at you? Why would he need that since he has ability that stuns after 3 attacks and ability that increases his attack speed. many times you die before you even notice that you are slowed by his charge. + so many ppl are getting mallet on him so slow on his charge is really unnecessary.
Vlads pool has also slow that isnt needed. All of his spells are instant cast and it gets slow for rylais. For a spell that is used to deal some extra dmg, heal, escape, avoid dmg, it really doesnt need a slow if you ask me.
Than again, MFs, make it rain with 40% slow is totally stupid. You want to tell me that when a little bullet hit you it slows you just a little less than when a cannon ball hits you from planks ulti?
And so on, not to mention that so many spells that slow have lower cd than slow duration (mundo, nunu, ashe, gragas, olaf,....)...
Oh i forgot. If this game had the same number of haste spells than i wouldnt mind and if they were proportional, but shurelyas is only item that has some bigger haste effect but only for a short duration. Look at summoner spells. 27% haste vs 40% slow. So even though you stack ms, use ghost and shurelyas, it needs only one slow to negate all of that.

So pls tell me how much slow is just too much?


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EFG

Senior Member

12-08-2010

The problem with blitz grab is that it promotes an un-fun playstyle. If you have a blitz basicly you just turtle in teamfights until he gets a grab off. Thats just boring and lame.


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Dreampod

Senior Member

12-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by P S Y View Post
Still can't figure how how Vlad's pool made it in under these patterns. It pretty much pisses off anywhere from 1 to 5 people when he uses it, and really only makes vlad happy, so the net effect of anti-fun of vlads pool is anywhere from 0 to -4.
Vlad's pool is bad design because of how unclear its tooltip is and the lack of clarity on how it operates.

It stops all autoattacks and single target spells. It stops some ongoing effects but not all with no clear pattern, it stops some AoE spells or portions thereof but not all with no clear pattern, and it conceals the visual hints that would help overcome this burden of knowledge.

Basically you have to know on an individual champion basis which spells affect him and the only way to gain this knowledge is extensive testing or trial and error. By far the worst example of 'Burden of Knowledge' in the game.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

12-08-2010
178 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylph1 View Post
Hi Zileas - I have been playing quite a number of games with LeBlanc. Could you please list some reasons how she's better against a tanky melee team? What types of advantages does she offer to counter that type of team?

What types of team comps can you recommend to lend to a more compatible team combination to include her? Perhaps when time permits.

Thank you for your continued posts, very insightful.
I find that E, now that I'm pretty good with it, can be very good at protecting carries from tanky melee. But it took a while to get to that point.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

12-08-2010
179 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by HARGIS View Post
Not to sound like a **** but your points on prot warriors in WoW are completely wrong.
They changed the talents. That's an old version I'm referring to. I was an expert on prot warriors around burning crusade era.

Improved revenge was classic anti-combo.. take the talent, and nerf your threat generation? If it also came with +50% threat gen or a rage cost reduction, it would be more aligned...

This was before the giant revenge rework, btw.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

12-08-2010
180 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErdoS The Wise View Post
Is screwing up shaco's jungling by hitting his jitb an example of
"Or We Could **** the Player!!1111oneoneone"

And for this:

- With Warriors in WoW -- they need to get rage by taking damage so that they can use abilities and gain threat -- but parry and dodge, which are key to staying alive, make them lose out on critical early fight rage. So, by gearing as a better tank, you become a worse tank in another dimension -- anti combo!
Couldnt you just say Jax getting thornmail? Its more relatable if it is indeed what you mean
well, Jax can choose not to get thornmail, he has many other great defensive options that are more viable. Warriors naturally accumulate parry and dodge on their good gear, and feel like they should be getting it, even though it nerfs them in some dimensions


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Sylph

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Emissary of the League

12-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
I find that E, now that I'm pretty good with it, can be very good at protecting carries from tanky melee. But it took a while to get to that point.
Thanks for the reply!

I agree that Ethereal Chains helps with helping allies / yourself get away from champions that chase. After playing many games with her I realize that a lot of it has to do with mindgames when it comes to laning and team battles.

From a design perspective, teams should not look to LeBlanc for heavy AP / magical damage correct? She is more suited in the offensive utility / disabler role?

Thanks again for your time sir.