Calling Lanes, Que Dodging, 3 year olds, and why Riot should take a stance

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Goodguy Hopper

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Senior Member

02-02-2013

still trying for a red response on this.


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Alaric11

Senior Member

02-03-2013

bump


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Mamie Jeadows

Senior Member

02-03-2013

This might be a bit off topic but replying to the first post:

I'm pretty much always last pick and I'm never first pick so I rely on calling my role and hoping everyone is nice and let's be the role I desire. I respect pick order though and if I can't get the role I want, I call a different one and again, hope for the best.


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Goodguy Hopper

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Senior Member

02-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mamie Jeadows View Post
This might be a bit off topic but replying to the first post:

I'm pretty much always last pick and I'm never first pick so I rely on calling my role and hoping everyone is nice and let's be the role I desire. I respect pick order though and if I can't get the role I want, I call a different one and again, hope for the best.

Your description is basically how it is supposed to work. Ask for roles if you don't get what you want because someone up the chain took it then ask for something else. On a side note if your always last pick your probably duo queuing with someone of higher rank.


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Morpf

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02-05-2013

New League system didnt make it better. I just lost 2 games in a row cause callers double trolled the lanes.


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SnappleJuice

Junior Member

02-05-2013

(A) play dominion or twisted instead. (B) There needs to be a random team matchmaker that preassigns slots and champs to both teams all random so people can get better and other roles and other champs to put an end to the babies that want to play teemo mid every time.


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Morpf

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02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morpf View Post
New League system didnt make it better. I just lost 2 games in a row cause callers double trolled the lanes.
i forgot that i should have compromissed and go support jax. shiiiit.


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Schtauffenz

Senior Member

02-05-2013

role-calling should be a normal only problem.

In ranked matches I feel like the order should be based on your hidden ELO (highest gets first pick, makes bans...) and then that person with the lowest elo gets last pick. However, this system really would suck when that 5th person is forced to jungle when really, I feel that's the hardest roll and do you really want the lowest ranked player doing it? IDK

What I do know, is if i'm first or 2nd pick I'm not listening to the 5th pick who says they want ADC. That's ridiculous. How is current order of picks selected?


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Goodguy Hopper

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Senior Member

02-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schtauffenz View Post
role-calling should be a normal only problem.

In ranked matches I feel like the order should be based on your hidden ELO (highest gets first pick, makes bans...) and then that person with the lowest elo gets last pick. However, this system really would suck when that 5th person is forced to jungle when really, I feel that's the hardest roll and do you really want the lowest ranked player doing it? IDK

What I do know, is if i'm first or 2nd pick I'm not listening to the 5th pick who says they want ADC. That's ridiculous. How is current order of picks selected?
I am fairly sure that it is still based on your hidden elo


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iMRts

Senior Member

02-06-2013

wtf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyssa Riel View Post
If you like what I said or even just want this discussion to get some notice please post a comment to show your support.

I know this will be long so I'll get a tl;dr at the bottom for our ADD friends. (Also at the bottom i'll put links to recap posts so you can get recaps of discussions through several pages, should save some reading time if you want to join in)

All of the ranked players in league will have experienced at some point a player calling a role, when they had hoped to play that role and had a higher pick than the player who called for a certain role.

Riots current stance on this -


By calling this a grey area you are essentially saying it is simultaneously ok for a player to call a lane, and ok for his teammates with a higher pick order to disregard that claim. Leaving this in a blank state unintentionally(?) creates a divide between teammates right from the start.

When a player calls a role that really isn't all that terrible, but because so many players will play that role even if someone in front of them locks in on that role it creates some weight behind the claim, and applies pressure to the higher picks to adhere to that claim if they don't want to have a feeder on their team.

If the higher pick decides that they are better at the role possibly even through empirical evidence such as lolking data or self knowledge of their win ratios in various roles, and decides to lock in on the called role they are gambling that the other person will behave rationally about their decision. Assuming the other person does not the only remaining option available to that player is to protest with their feet (queue dodge).

It is unlikely that the other player who did not behave rationally about not getting the role they want will queue dodge, they have already demonstrated that they care little enough about winning by their intentional miss pick.

So coming down this train of thought that there will be a queue dodge lets look at queue dodging. Riot removed the elo penalty for queue dodging recognizing that people can and will troll ranked games despite the personal loss to themselves. Riot has also adopted the position that too many queue dodges are a banable offense. Their argument is that they do not want people queue dodging "frivolously"-



While I understand Riots point that only the worse offenders for queue dodging will be banned. It is still a stance that troubles me when i dodge; despite Riot's reassurance that "only the worst" will be punished.

Down to brass tacks-

Queue Dodging-
In solo queue an individual player represents roughly 10% of the result of a match, individually players have little control over the course of the game, and the fact that no matter how good you are at the game you can still suffer losses to bad team mates is very infuriating, and this negative emotional build up is bad for the individual, his future teams, and Riot as a gaming company. The single most powerful tool riot has given players that can help them feel empowered is the ability to bow out of a queue in which they feel their team is not up to par. Their decision could be based on their team mates lolking, their teams champion picks, or even just the attitude of their team mates in chat. Either way it was less of a toxic environment for both themselves and their would have been team mates who they had a low opinion of. The decision to dodge is not an entirely unskilled one either. Rapidly assessing the comparative skill level between your team and your opponents team given limited information is in fact a highly skill intensive decision.

What does this mean for you Riot -
You should support the idea of player's dodging for ANY reason because when they dodge it means they have a low opinion of their team mates and they are preventing a toxic environment which will inevitably reflect poorly on you as a company. I am not unaware of the need to prevent people from using the dodge tool as a means of trolling, but when you say "This player kept dodging games until he/she found one they could win, and that is wrong." I look at it and think that is hardly wrong they where willing to pay a penalty of their time and effort to assure a victory, and have continued to demonstrate skill in actually winning the games they select to play, quite the opposite of wrong that is smart.

Another issue involved with dodging are players who intentionally try and get others to dodge. This is to my mind a pretty deplorable act and is exemplary of abusing the system I moments ago was praising. Rather than dig through tons of data and try to identify players who are in a high percentage of dodged games wouldn't it be simpler to allow a player to report "why" or more accurately who they dodged because of? If this was allowed it would rapidly identify players who are causing others to dodge via trolling and quickly eliminate those players.

Your next objection is going to be "a player will dodge because they didn't get the role they wanted and will report the player who took the role they 'called'" and right about now your realizing how you not taking a stance on calling roles is standing in the way of improving the game in anther aspect... Neat huh?

You have already demonstrated your willingness to be a morale judge and jury on other issues which is 100% ok. So why not in this case which is causing so much conflict between your players? I am sure you care about the players based on the amount of effort you put into socially molding your community.

This initial step of saying either: "They who called it first, should be allowed to play it" or "The pick order gets the final say in who plays what" will do very little in terms of immediately changing the current conflict but it will give those non-toxic forum reading players something to focus on and work towards. It will also give you as a company a direction to work towards when making mechanical changes to the queuing process.

Why should you say pick order takes precedence over calling a role?

I think in some small way I may have gotten across why you should make a stance, but which should you decide between I am not sure I have relayed. Based on how I have spoken you can probably imagine which side I am on, but don't let that sway you into believing I have not considered both.

I do in fact support the opinion that pick order is superior to calling roles.
1. The pick order is reflective of the relative rating of the players, in some small way this means that if both players could only play the same role you have slightly more empirical evidence that suggests which would be better at the disputed role.

2. Over the course of hundreds of games you will have your turn being seated as anywhere from 1st through 5th pick and as such this produces the most fair system in which players would get their "turn" playing more favored roles. The exception to this being duo queue with high elo gaps. In this case the duo queue is gaining the first pick in exchange for the last pick (probably fair).

IDEA(S) for balancing pick order
I was thinking about a game I had back when i was in the high 1400's where not one word was said all during champion select, we ended up with a well balanced team, and no one was upset over not getting the role they called. Once we got in the game we talked about positioning and pinged when we needed to. Overall one of the most enjoyable games i have ever played, and it all started with players getting in there and doing what needed to be done to win without worrying about where they would be when the win occurred. In light of this I thought man if they just disabled chat during champ selection every game would have to be like this. You couldn't get mad at anyone for "taking your role" because there wouldn't be any way they could have known. I understand this eliminates champion swapping, but honestly I think extra harmony amongst players would be worth losing the champion swap option.

Another option would be to have a team captain(TC) who assigns roles at the start of the game. Just give them a hover over that shows win loss records with their top 3 champions, and let him work it out based on that information. If there is a disagreement then there is a clear "troll" who is not listening to the TC. For yeas competitive sports have nominated and used TCs to settle disputes and maintain team balance, some TCs being more successful than other also adds an additional skill aspect to the game.

Calling roles and its problems + some possible solutions if riot wants to go this route.
One problem with calling roles is that even if every player always called the role they where good at they would collide with other players who are also good at their best roles. Secondly when it becomes a foot race for first to call, the typed message appears on a players screen as soon as they press enter where it takes time to turn up on others. So frequently when both players say 'I see i called it first, they are both being honest." Someone is gonna feel cheated when a third party steps in and says who it shows first on their screen. Additionally the games is currently setup with a pick order so to call a role you would need to rework the queuing system. This will most likely lead to longer queue times as the server searches for compatibility, and will also probably lead to more unbalanced games as the server broadens its search to make a full team fit.

If you are going to do called roles players need to be able to call their role before they go into champion select otherwise you are going to continue to generate toxic environments where players have both called the same role. To do this players are going to need to precheck which roles they are going to play and be informed of which role they have been assigned. This will also stagnate the meta as riot will officially be recognizing the current role system, and which lanes those roles "belong" in.

The problem, the metaphorical "dumby" version
The problem is currently like two 3-year-olds fighting over the front seat of a car. Normally if there wasn't a parent around the bigger and stronger one would simply punch the other one push them into the back seat and accept the consequences latter. For there to be a peaceful resolution there needs to be a parent near by to enforce the concept of taking turns. Riot you, unfortunately, need to be that parent in this instance because we can't roshambo for this over the internet.

High Queue Times as an argument against dodging


Some of the more impact full things from this thread















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Recent Red posts on this Issue -


I agree that flexibility and teamwork go a long way towards increasing your elo, probably more so than any other characteristic(s), and I also recognize you weren't responding to this thread. In a disagreement where neither side can be right/wrong, then the only hope is that whoever is lacking power to support their opinion will remain rational when they don't get their way. It is unreasonable to expect every person queuing for league to be this sort of individual. While unfortunate this does mean that there needs to be some authority stance on what is correct and what is not. Stating, "you will just HAVE to work it out mid champion select." Is essentially begging for conflict, and simply a restatement of Pendragon's original stance.

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TL;DR -
Riot needs to take a stance on pick order vs. calling roles because their neutrality is generating a toxic environment that the player community can not come to a consensus to on their own.

Riot should rethink their position on queue dodging for any reason because queue dodges have a positive impact on the game by preventing toxic environments. Additionally, it is fair to queue dodge because you suspect you'll lose because it is one of the few aspects players have direct control over as individuals in solo queue where their score currently reflects a summary score of the teams they have played with, but is viewed as an individual reflection of their own skill.

When/If Riot takes a stance on pick order vs. calling roles I support pick order because it is the most fair in terms of cycling who gets to play what roles, and would require the least overhaul in terms of work on the game's mechanics.

Links to Recaps so you can catch up faster if you are new to this thread (cough cough red) -