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Please explain to me how Riven nerfs are fair.

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Imaginable

Senior Member

01-13-2013

Quote:
X74X:
Do you take everything Dyrus says as fact even when the devs of the game basically disagree with him? Last I checked the fact that he's a professional player, and one who puts himself on quite a larger pedestal than necessary doesn't mean he has any clue when it comes to champion balance. Skill in a game doesn't grant knowledge of the deeper functions of the game, including balance. I've seen players in gold elo and over complaining about "OP champions" that are pretty far from OP. Dyrus doesn't necessarily have to be any different.


Comparing a Gold player to someone that has been Diamond since Beta, great comparison. And did I ever say that he was the end all be all of balance? No. But when someone that does nothing but play one lane, and knows the ins and outs of it, better than you and me more than likely, is worth bringing up. Hell, do you think Best Riven NA would be around if she wasn't so easy to snowball with early? Probably not.

Now are you going to continue to complain about a simple example, or are you going to actually attempt to say anything that has any relevance to her nerf?


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X74

Senior Member

01-13-2013

Quote:
CrayCraybby:
Comparing a Gold player to someone that has been Diamond since Beta, great comparison. And did I ever say that he was the end all be all of balance? No. But when someone that does nothing but play one lane, and knows the ins and outs of it, better than you and me more than likely, is worth bringing up. Hell, do you think Best Riven NA would be around if she wasn't so easy to snowball with early? Probably not.

Now are you going to continue to complain about a simple example, or are you going to actually attempt to say anything that has any relevance to her nerf?


I would if you gave me more reasons you think she should be nerfed so I have something to work with besides your first post, which contributed nothing.

I'd also like to add that I also think the nerfs are justified, but not to the degree that they're being done. Recently Riot has increased her base hp/5 from what they were doing to make it to be a bit more acceptable.


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Worlds Smu Giest

Senior Member

01-15-2013

*This is probably the biggest wall of text I have ever written for any forum.*

The Issue with the nerfs if she has always been designed as a snow ball damage burst champion, she has no natural sustain(except her regen or lifesteal), the only thing that keeps her even moderately alive is valor and 10 points doesn't cut it if she is getting a Regen Nerf this heavy.

It's like leblanc or most of the assassins, until you get kills you can do NOTHING for a team except maybe get lucky and squish a carry if you can burst fast enough. Her laning phase does have some very heavy counters if people understand her kit at all or if the riven in question can't play everything perfect, she has a very slim margin or error a lot of the time.

First and foremost, don't fight her at level 1, you will lose, Know how she is building, if she believes you are an easy target she will build damage first, if she expects trouble in trading, it will be health or armor. If she builds damage play a safe lane and try to avoid positioning your self to get poked and harassed hard. If She builds tank lure her out from playing safe and don't push the lane.

The issue with Riven is Until she gets her First Blood thirster or seriously damaging item, she can't do a lot, cause she's expensive to build, it becomes a liability for your late game. What I would argue however, is Late game, Riven is not going to fall off anymore. with the new Cleaver, the changes to penetration and the Hydra, a few tricks with spell vamp, and alot of AD and health she can effectively burst an entire team by her self where if she has a competent team to clean up the mess, it will be a victory.

Riven's place in a team, is effectively, Bait and Damage, making her need to build tanky for late game effectiveness. Riven is the Definition of a bruiser, someone who beats up the enemy team hard enough that they can't fight, Pounds the Soft parts of the enemy, leaves the enemy to be mopped up quickly after she fights. The fact that a snow balling Riven gets focused is the same reason Singed get's chased, she has a lot of hate for her ability to wreck people.

Nerfing riven will make her a devotee's champion to play, I can tell you right now, Riven will not be unplayable by a long shot, What I would look at, is more people Jungling with her, her clear time is pretty good and she can do her whole clear without a leash, not to mention the amazing counter jungling abilities she has with cc and high mobility. All you have to do to counter her Regen nerf is buy a rejuvenation bead for your warmogs later, 180 gold to counter her nerf(assuming her regen scaling isn't changed), that's like what, a single minion wave or buff and golem's. Cause if your Playing Riven, and your not trying to force a level 1-4(even level 6) kill hard early, you know it's going to be a hard lane anyway, you will build a warmogs(sooner or later) if you are smart.

On to the ultimate CD nerf, I can agree that yes It is a fairly short cool down even at level 1, What they are talking about doing is increasing it by 35 seconds from 75 to 110 essentially. That's two minutes of no ult at level 6, then to around 70 or so at 11, then leaving her level 16 ultimate the same cd of about 50 seconds(if I recall correctly). here is WHY this was done, CDR from a brutalizer is at 10%, By the time you hit 6 if you have backed and bought one(as most rivens do now) you are in a kill lane and you are probably wrecking face or you wouldn't have one or the desire to buy one necessarily. This brings your ultimate down to 99 seconds, before runes and masteries. Then steadily down more and more, now let's say you are just doing average as riven and not snow balling or you've been getting camped, you are going to probably have your Black cleaver, merc treads/ninjatabi and Finishing on your Bloodthirster and looking that warmogs so your still at 10% either way, but now your level 11 and your CD is now 60~.

Or let's say you're fully snowballed and you have Ionian boots for 25% cdr including your Brutalizer, you have your cleaver and BT, No longer would you be at a 110 second cd, but a staggeringly low 82. Let's say you continue this Rampage, till around 11, you've taken your tower and your lane opponent is nearly worthless and left to farm the lane, you have your bt and cleaver and more then a warmogs you want a Gaurdian Angel( I don't recommend GA personally as it's usually not enough to save you.), but none the less you're fed and dangerous at level 11. Your ulti is now at a base of 70, but thanks to that blue you got from killing mid, stealing it, or the enemy jungler, you have your 40% CDR, thats 45~ seconds, or even if you should not be so lucky, it's still only 52 seconds, less then a minute between ults. That's LESS time then it takes for someone you killed to re-spawn and return to a killing location. Now it's End game, you are beyond Fed, you're at level 18, you've even stacked a Sword of the occult you are so fed and keep it's stacks relatively high. your Ult's base cd is 50, you are taking all the buffs for the sheer need or the fact you kill everyone who has one. That's a 30 second Cool down or so. Your ultimate is now active more then a full CDR stacked Cho'gath ult, you put Lux into a close contest for use of Ultimate.

However, I would point out a few things for you to consider given this information. First, Riven is now the Number one target and lo and behold a melee champion at that, if she is not being focused hard in a team fight, There is something you have to worry about more then just a fed riven if you are playing this game. Second, Riven's snow balling is only a threat if two things are allowed, first, if she has her Jungler camping her lane or she is allowed to roam and pick up kills. Third, if she does not get those kills early, it takes her a fair amount of farm to try and farm the gold needed for her build.

Consider for a moment, Riven's Full build BloodThirster(x2), Black Cleaver, Warmogs, Guardian Angel, Merc Treads/ninjatabi/ionian costs approximately: 15400gp. or MORE if you run with no boots at all and go for the exotic 3rd blood thirster or more defensive items(I do not advise frozenmallet, but maw or Thornmail, or potentially a hextech gunblade*This i will explain*)

For this build, you need the equivalent of about 52~ Kills. There is no way in hell you can get this many kills in anything but a troll or bot game. Which means Farm, ALOT of farm, Dragon, baron and shut downs, this is why she is a solo top/jungle champion.

Now as for why I mentioned hextech gunblade, I've been doing research and experimenting a little here and there with ways to give her more survivability in team fights and The best compliment to this I've found if you have enough damage and lifesteal already is the 20% spell vamp from a hextech gunblade, as it still adds AD and lifesteal on it's own. While amusing as it may sound to have 65 aditional ap on a only AD scaling champion, consider the following: If you are trying to break into a pile or through an enemy team to get at your target you will be spamming your Broken wings through the team fight. Each hit gives you health back on your way to the target softening any damage you are receiving as your focused on your trip to the enemy Carry. Your Q W and R windslash will now heal you while you are unable to auto attack, giving you the chance to reach your target and start killing it.

Ok thats my Giant wall of Text end hopefully the End of Arguement on Riven, granted this means Riven now has to be played a little more close to the line, but in closing for those who can't read or don't care.

TL;DR- Buy a Hp Regen bead thingy and make sure you get a brutalizer at some-point soon so your Ultimate is still a short as **** Cool-down, also potions are your best friends.


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King Roofus

Recruiter

01-15-2013

Quote:
CrayCraybby:
Comparing a Gold player to someone that has been Diamond since Beta, great comparison. And did I ever say that he was the end all be all of balance? No. But when someone that does nothing but play one lane, and knows the ins and outs of it, better than you and me more than likely, is worth bringing up. Hell, do you think Best Riven NA would be around if she wasn't so easy to snowball with early? Probably not.

Now are you going to continue to complain about a simple example, or are you going to actually attempt to say anything that has any relevance to her nerf?


Diamond since beta? There wasn't even diamond till this past season.


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Spitƒire

Senior Member

01-15-2013

Riven is one of the most damage-bursty bruiser champs in the League. Add that, plus her spam shield and quick gap closer (with some abilities that have longer range than even RANGED champions) then you're lucky she wasn't nerfed harder.


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Akuen

Senior Member

01-15-2013

Quote:
She has a very slim margin or error a lot of the time.


If she's being a little overzealous yes. Riven has such a low skill cap that it's not even funny unlike Leblanc or most of those other champions that you've mentioned which mostly happen to be assassins.


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Worlds Smu Giest

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Akuen:
If she's being a little overzealous yes. Riven has such a low skill cap that it's not even funny unlike Leblanc or most of those other champions that you've mentioned which mostly happen to be assassins.


I question over zealous, Riven is an aggressive champion just in her nature. Her Skill cap is medium, I've play against a lot of bad rivens, it may just be my horrible ELO bracket but I certainly know a thing or two about how she is played.

LeBlanc is such an easy champion to play, W E Q R W all on smart cast and you've just killed someone in under 2 seconds and gotten away. it's Quite literally face roll. Riven has more options and has a longer burst then most assasins but shortest in the way of Bruisers, Darius for example, W AA Q AA E(if they are smart) AA Q AA R(if you are ready) total timer of burst is about 10-12 seconds for his shortest burst unless it's just a harass with Q AA W AA of about 3-6 seconds. Riven is more like this, Q AA Q AA W AA Q AA for maximium damage burst then E Q Q Q out which is 7-10 seconds, Shortest harass is Q AA W AA then double Q out of reach which is anywhere from 1-3 seconds.

Though Keep in mind, Riven has a much less tankier stats then any top lane bruiser(except nidalee but she can build straight tank and still do fine because spears op and AD nid is has even more burst then riven) Which is why she is so good against other melee bruisers. Singed, Teemo, Vlad, Sometimes Mordekaiser(alot of bad morde's), and the AP bruiser cast except for Cho'Gath all have things that make life hell for Riven but she can still with if she can out play them.

Cho'Gath is an exception only because all of his abilities require him to turn, Stay behind him with your harass and move with him in your combo and he will never touch you once as Riven, and his early game is pitiful and he can burn mana like an exploding oil refinery. If you do not get an edge on Cho'gath early*and you should* the lane becomes harder, or if he plays passively;which by the way every cho'gath player I have ever seen doesn't turn their spikes off to last hit and thus naturally pushes their lane making him very easy to kill early on. Only then it becomes harder because he CAN just farm toplane forever you can't, same as Gangplank(Tip for fighting GP, stay in bushes and wait for him to be low on mana then just kill him.) it doesn't matter if you kill him first in lane, he scales off items better then you do because he is a real carry.

Vlad and kennen are perhaps the most annoying except for maybe Shen(I'll get to Teemo next), as they have the ability to completely deny your combo and counter harass you without much effort, and have better harass then you the entire time in lane. Kennen has more mobility and better escapes then you and stuns. Vlad has sustain forever and hard poke with it to boot, all he needs is a dorans shield and he counters pretty much all AD bruisers top. Only way to win is have brush control and zone him from minions with harass and not even stop to land AA damage on them, same with if you go Botlane with Riven as a Kill lane.

Teemo is a special case top lane much the same as singed, you can';t shut them down and they scale always high into later game, just a liandries makes them infinitely dangerous to you and your team forever. With the increased hp now on liandries this makes teemo just that much harder to kill.

Riven must be played well, granted her kit is simple enough but it is that simplicity which makes it that much harder to master against every opponent. No one hard counters her, because of that simplicity, and she hard counters a lot of the more complex and tricky people because she just has to fight them and not be afraid. You can make some very ballsy plays as Riven, and usually come out alive and on top of an exchange, but recovery is harder.

I do not believe that any Champion is responsible for failure or being too strong, I do not believe that Any champion is restricted in where they can be played only how they can be played if they want to be successful there. It is the player who in the end is responsible for how good or bad a champion performs, so if you suck at playing the champion or make bad decisions or have opponents who are out playing you, That is on You.


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Akuen

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Riven must be played well, granted her kit is simple enough but it is that simplicity which makes it that much harder to master against every opponent.


And you said Leblanc was faceroll to win. I was playing with a Riven earlier who lagged, mashed her keyboard and killed a tank. Riven is the ultimate in faceroll.


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Worlds Smu Giest

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Akuen:
And you said Leblanc was faceroll to win. I was playing with a Riven earlier who lagged, mashed her keyboard and killed a tank. Riven is the ultimate in faceroll.


I can't explain that one, give me a replay or something what tank was it? Mundo? Taric? If they built armor and not hp then blame Black Cleaver not riven.


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Akuen

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
blame Black Cleaver not riven.


Oh Black Cleaver is most certainly broken and it does push Riven up a bit higher. Her spammable abilities are most of the issue however.