Why we hate Elo-Hell believers

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Seiichi

Member

12-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selcopa View Post
I bolded the mistake part, im sure there's plenty of mistakes, like you probably didn't buy a sword of occult, that's a huge mistake when you get 10 kills that quickly. And there's a good chance you just didn't force the enemy team to actions properly. I seriously doubt there was nothing you could have done to win that game. But I suppose we will never know.

As far as you hitting gold, won't that just prove im right? That there is no elo hell. The point of your argument is that you are a gold player, and you are unable to get there because of bad players. But if you get there, then there's not really an elo hell is there? There's a short term noise issue, but not elo hell.
K, I will respond to this, yah im not perfect, but when my team goes "lets fight" and they chose a target, and I smash that target with a Q I expect them to come with me, instead I get stunned, no big deal... except.... they backed while I was stunned, completely disengaging and allowing 5 people to eat me. Its not hard, I dont care who you are, if Im Leona, your positioning does not matter, you are getting stunned. If I stun a sivir and sivirs team runs, that sivir is getting stunned a 2nd time by me and is dying. Dont give a **** how high your elo is, you get stunned twice in a 1v5, your not gettin out as sivir.

Sword of the occult? u think im gunna be big and not get one for some of the cheapest damage in the game? you do think Im new. My fiddle is probably one of the reasons soulstealer got nerf'd as many times as it did, it was the cheapest way for me to get over 100ap in 15 min. Did Sword of the occult matter? no. I got maybe 3 more kills before the game ended. Does it matter how much damage I do if there are 2 tanks between me and anyone that I am capable of killing? no. Or I dont know... do platinup players run past tanks to get kills? or... let me guess, you'd go thru the jungle and come up behind them? how about... teleport across the map to get someone out of position? I can go on and on comming up with "what if's" or you can read that I tried to teamfight, didnt work, tried to roam, cost me towers, tried to defend, cost me the game. Is there something im missing? where my Q's not good enough? does it matter?

To put it bluntly, if I was a platinum player perhapse I could have done more, maybe not, but im NOT. And we arent talking about how platinum players do at 1200 elo, we are talking about how 1200 elo people do at 1000 elo with 3 feeders on their team. We arent talking about how to become perfect at 1200 elo, we are talking about how to discourage feeding at lower levels, so those who are at a 1200 elo level can spend less time frustraited and more time learning the game. But its cool, cuz your plat, and we should all just... be you? cuz if we arent you, we dont deserve a fun, feeder free game of LoL, we arent worthy are we? cuz we arent platinum, we dont deserve to have an elo system that better reflects individual skill and contribution. Gotcha. If I ever find u in a game, I'll be sure to say hi, And ask why your in a game with someone as bad as me. C u at the top.


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Smittens91

Senior Member

12-24-2012

ITT: People who don't understand math.

Elo Hell does not exist. It is an excuse used by people to explain why they lose a majority of their games. Like someone else had said, as long as you are not the problem and you are a better player than the Elo bracket you are currently in (you 'deserve' higher Elo), you will rise in Elo. This is FACT, and how Elo works.

If there is a feeder in the game, there is a greater chance for them to be on the enemy team than your own. Because Elo works as an average between many games, this works in your favor as feeders/trolls/leavers/bad players will cause you to GAIN Elo more frequently than LOSING Elo. If you continue losing Elo, then it holds true that YOU are the problem, not your team. It's statistics; basic math.

Elo Hell does NOT exist. It is merely an excuse to cover up what Elo your average gameplay has set you in. Read: YOUR gameplay, not your teamates.


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Baxter the Teddy

Senior Member

12-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seiichi View Post
K, I will respond to this, yah im not perfect, but when my team goes "lets fight" and they chose a target, and I smash that target with a Q I expect them to come with me, instead I get stunned, no big deal... except.... they backed while I was stunned, completely disengaging and allowing 5 people to eat me. Its not hard, I dont care who you are, if Im Leona, your positioning does not matter, you are getting stunned. If I stun a sivir and sivirs team runs, that sivir is getting stunned a 2nd time by me and is dying. Dont give a **** how high your elo is, you get stunned twice in a 1v5, your not gettin out as sivir.

Sword of the occult? u think im gunna be big and not get one for some of the cheapest damage in the game? you do think Im new. My fiddle is probably one of the reasons soulstealer got nerf'd as many times as it did, it was the cheapest way for me to get over 100ap in 15 min. Did Sword of the occult matter? no. I got maybe 3 more kills before the game ended. Does it matter how much damage I do if there are 2 tanks between me and anyone that I am capable of killing? no. Or I dont know... do platinup players run past tanks to get kills? or... let me guess, you'd go thru the jungle and come up behind them? how about... teleport across the map to get someone out of position? I can go on and on comming up with "what if's" or you can read that I tried to teamfight, didnt work, tried to roam, cost me towers, tried to defend, cost me the game. Is there something im missing? where my Q's not good enough? does it matter?

To put it bluntly, if I was a platinum player perhapse I could have done more, maybe not, but im NOT. And we arent talking about how platinum players do at 1200 elo, we are talking about how 1200 elo people do at 1000 elo with 3 feeders on their team. We arent talking about how to become perfect at 1200 elo, we are talking about how to discourage feeding at lower levels, so those who are at a 1200 elo level can spend less time frustraited and more time learning the game. But its cool, cuz your plat, and we should all just... be you? cuz if we arent you, we dont deserve a fun, feeder free game of LoL, we arent worthy are we? cuz we arent platinum, we dont deserve to have an elo system that better reflects individual skill and contribution. Gotcha. If I ever find u in a game, I'll be sure to say hi, And ask why your in a game with someone as bad as me. C u at the top.
^ This guy makes me lol.

He claims that Selcopa is refusing to listen to anyone else's point of view, that he is an arrogant ******* but he's answering all of your points in a polite, well thought out arguments that use FACTS from the game. And all he does is NOT respond with counter points, but instead try to make him sound like an arrogant SOB.

He's TELLING you how to have a fun, feeder free game (or mostly) GET BETTER. Go watch some pro streams, watch some commentated games, practice and get better. THEN you don't have to worry about "Elo Hell" you can just leave "it!"

And if you don't have time to do that(and it doesn't take THAT much time. I'm doing it right now.) Than why the **** are you worried about it? Just play normals! You can queue dodge with much less of a penalty, can still do draft(and people still take it RELATIVELY seriously with the meta, I see more troll picks in ranked than draft) and if you lose YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MATTER. It'll be in your match histroy for what, the next 10 games and than it's gone. Poof! Never happened!


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Seiichi

Member

12-24-2012

every argument selcopa makes is "get better, I woulda won that game" and none of my points or complaints are geared towards a platinum player escaping elo hell, if that fundamental fact isnt clear to you, and your only solution is "get as good as 1600 elo players if you want to reach 1400 elo" then I ask you, how do I get that good if all I see is 3 people a game going 2-10. I cant tell them not to push alone, cuz I get reported for having a negative attitude. I cant stop 5 people from colapsing on them, and I cant stop 5 people from destroying towers on my own. Fact is, its a team game, and to beat a team of 1300 elo people with 3 feeders on my team just isnt feasable for someone that belongs in the 1300 elo. Do the 2-10 feeders belong there? obviously not, if your in a game and your outmatched that badly you dont belong there, so please tell me why they are there if elo accurately reflects your skill.



Quote:
Originally Posted by FlC Madman View Post

He's TELLING you how to have a fun, feeder free game (or mostly) GET BETTER. Go watch some pro streams, watch some commentated games, practice and get better. THEN you don't have to worry about "Elo Hell" you can just leave "it!"

And if you don't have time to do that(and it doesn't take THAT much time. I'm doing it right now.) Than why the **** are you worried about it? Just play normals! You can queue dodge with much less of a penalty, can still do draft(and people still take it RELATIVELY seriously with the meta, I see more troll picks in ranked than draft) and if you lose YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MATTER. It'll be in your match histroy for what, the next 10 games and than it's gone. Poof! Never happened!
and to answer you, I'd like to know what part of "just develope 1900 elo" is telling me how to carry 3-4 feeders, or what part of "just get better" is stopping them from feeding. I'd also love to know how I can stop top, mid, and bottom from feeding at the same moment in time. Fact is, I get 1 champion to control per game, and there are 2 ways I win, #1 is I get less than 3 feeders and carry, or enable someone to carry, #2 is someone on the other team disconnects and my feeders decide to push a tower.

Call me cocky but I watch gold games and think "wow, these guys really arent very good" the way they play is 100x better than the people I play with in solo queue, but they still make tons and tons of obvious mistakes, so I have done that and I still look at it and go "ok, so im about gold level cuz I can outplay alot of these guys" or "I doubt I woulda been blindsided by that" but I also think "wow, if their team did like my team does, and refuse to follow up cuz they wanna farm, they woulda been screwed, so it all comes down to everyone backing eachother up" just like it is in most competitive team games. I bet I have alot to improve on, and I disappoint myself alot, but like I said before, I know im better than the guys I play with now, and if the feeders stop long enough, my elo will go up. But that isnt true for everyone, and there are tons and tons and tons of people that cannot hack it in this system because they are 1300 elo material sitting at 700 elo. So before you say im crying about my time, Im not. Im thinking of the people around me.

As for normal games, they are worse than 700 elo games cuz when I say "yo, pushing top alone all the way to an inhib is gunna get u killed again, please stop" I get "stfu noob. its not ranked, I do what I want" and I get reported for having a negative attitude. Fun. I got a 2 day ban cuz I did **** like ask people about as nicely as possible to stick with the team so they wouldnt die for the 8th time. Needless to say, I am just about done with talking to anyone in game, cuz the community is so butt hurt that anyone giving advice is labeled a cocky *******. After meting selcopa, I understand why. Kid cant stop tellin me to be better long enough to even understand that I am not worried about my elo and this post wasnt cuz I feel I should have a better elo. I know how I'll get out, my friends.... I dont.... I dont see them ever getting out and as a result they hate this game and dont want to play ranked. Should they be below 1k elo? definately not, will they surpass 1400 and get into games with maybe 1 or 2 manageable feeders? probably not. But madman, like I told selcopa, I'll see you at the top bud. And when I get there, you better believe I'll still be fighting to get the system changed to discourage feeding.

By the way, u can bash my ideas all you want, but I'd like to ask you, how do you suggest we discourage feeding and create a better game for the average player? do you have any advice besides "become better than average"? Didnt think so....


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Selcopa

Senior Member

12-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seiichi View Post
K, I will respond to this, yah im not perfect, but when my team goes "lets fight" and they chose a target, and I smash that target with a Q I expect them to come with me, instead I get stunned, no big deal... except.... they backed while I was stunned, completely disengaging and allowing 5 people to eat me. Its not hard, I dont care who you are, if Im Leona, your positioning does not matter, you are getting stunned. If I stun a sivir and sivirs team runs, that sivir is getting stunned a 2nd time by me and is dying. Dont give a **** how high your elo is, you get stunned twice in a 1v5, your not gettin out as sivir.
Well for one thing I probably would of also gotten a Quicksilver if I was that big, because I know the enemy team is going to focus me, and I am a significant portion of the teams damage, I sure as hell don't wanna be stunned.

The more obvious aspect of this is the whole, you know, you being sivir, why exactly aren't you blocking the stun? If you are getting stunned twice as a sivir, you really aren't that high elo.

Quote:
Sword of the occult? u think im gunna be big and not get one for some of the cheapest damage in the game? you do think Im new. My fiddle is probably one of the reasons soulstealer got nerf'd as many times as it did, it was the cheapest way for me to get over 100ap in 15 min. Did Sword of the occult matter? no. I got maybe 3 more kills before the game ended. Does it matter how much damage I do if there are 2 tanks between me and anyone that I am capable of killing? no. Or I dont know... do platinup players run past tanks to get kills? or... let me guess, you'd go thru the jungle and come up behind them? how about... teleport across the map to get someone out of position? I can go on and on comming up with "what if's" or you can read that I tried to teamfight, didnt work, tried to roam, cost me towers, tried to defend, cost me the game. Is there something im missing? where my Q's not good enough? does it matter?
Well the SOO gives you power for cheap, which allows you to build a Last Whisper, so you can shred tanks.

Another piece of information, you got 10 kills in 9 minutes(or whatever), didn't build the SOO early, and then you only get 3 more kills after that? You can see the mistake there, you had a good early game, but clearly you didn't capitalize on that.

As to what you could have done better, i'd have to watch the replay, but you have to recognize how powerful you are, and take advantage of that, and realize that you have the opportunity to win the game on your own when you are in that situation.

Quote:
To put it bluntly, if I was a platinum player perhapse I could have done more, maybe not, but im NOT. And we arent talking about how platinum players do at 1200 elo, we are talking about how 1200 elo people do at 1000 elo with 3 feeders on their team. We arent talking about how to become perfect at 1200 elo, we are talking about how to discourage feeding at lower levels, so those who are at a 1200 elo level can spend less time frustraited and more time learning the game. But its cool, cuz your plat, and we should all just... be you? cuz if we arent you, we dont deserve a fun, feeder free game of LoL, we arent worthy are we? cuz we arent platinum, we dont deserve to have an elo system that better reflects individual skill and contribution. Gotcha. If I ever find u in a game, I'll be sure to say hi, And ask why your in a game with someone as bad as me. C u at the top.
But what you are saying is that a better player could have won the game, so its not that the game was unwinnable, just that you personally couldn't win the game, therefore there was more you can do.
EDIT: Also, We're not talking about platinum here, you haven't really shown me anything to prove you belong at gold, I still maintain that a gold player would probably have had no problem securing a win, if they started out getting 9 kills in 10 minutes

The thing is that this system does accurately show players relative skill, a consistent 1300 is worse than a consistent 1400, there just hasn't been a counter example to this fact.

I'm also not talking about you becoming perfect at 1200, there are some very simple basic things to practice and get good at to make it to higher elos and still be making tons of mistakes.

Finally i'm going to once again ask the question you did not answer.

You call it ELO Hell, and then you say you will get to gold, however, doing this only proves me right does it not? Your entire argument rests on 2 things.

1: if you were to play 150 games at 1500(gold) you would maintain gold.
2: No matter how many games you play with your current skill level, it is impossible for you to make it to 1500.

This is just a simple logic process. If you make it to gold, you effectively just disproved your own version of elo hell. I don't know anyone who will allow you to play 100(probably even 50) games on their 1500 account, but I have a feeling that you wouldn't be able to stay at gold either.

Can you watch a game of Gold players and say "wow, I am not impressed with how they are playing" Sure, but the thing that's different from you is consistency, they make less mistakes overall than you do, this causes them to win more games, and maintain a higher elo.


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Selcopa

Senior Member

12-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seiichi View Post
every argument selcopa makes is "get better, I woulda won that game" and none of my points or complaints are geared towards a platinum player escaping elo hell, if that fundamental fact isnt clear to you, and your only solution is "get as good as 1600 elo players if you want to reach 1400 elo" then I ask you, how do I get that good if all I see is 3 people a game going 2-10. I cant tell them not to push alone, cuz I get reported for having a negative attitude. I cant stop 5 people from colapsing on them, and I cant stop 5 people from destroying towers on my own. Fact is, its a team game, and to beat a team of 1300 elo people with 3 feeders on my team just isnt feasable for someone that belongs in the 1300 elo. Do the 2-10 feeders belong there? obviously not, if your in a game and your outmatched that badly you dont belong there, so please tell me why they are there if elo accurately reflects your skill.
There are some games at 1200 that you might need to be 1900 caliber to win.
There are some games at 1200 that you might need to be 1700 caliber to win.
There are some games at 1200 that you might need to be 1500 caliber to win.
There are some games at 1200 that you might need to be 1300 caliber to win.
There are some games at 1200 that you might need to be 1100 caliber to win.

If you are 1300 caliber, there are some games that you wont win. However over time you will win more games than the people that are 1200 caliber. You will win games that other people will lose, that is how you move up.
EDIT: A 1600 player will get to 1400 from 1200 faster than a 1500 or 1400 player, because they are capable of winning games that 1400/1500 players aren't. The 1400 player will reach 1400 as well. It will take him more time though.


Quote:
and to answer you, I'd like to know what part of "just develope 1900 elo" is telling me how to carry 3-4 feeders, or what part of "just get better" is stopping them from feeding. I'd also love to know how I can stop top, mid, and bottom from feeding at the same moment in time. Fact is, I get 1 champion to control per game, and there are 2 ways I win, #1 is I get less than 3 feeders and carry, or enable someone to carry, #2 is someone on the other team disconnects and my feeders decide to push a tower.
You don't need to develop 1900 elo, but the more skilled you get then the more different types of games youll be able to win.

Quote:
But that isnt true for everyone, and there are tons and tons and tons of people that cannot hack it in this system because they are 1300 elo material sitting at 700 elo. So before you say im crying about my time, Im not. Im thinking of the people around me.
I have not found a single player, ive reviewed replays for over 75 players from that region. If you can find this 700 player that belongs at 1300 CONSISTENTLY, show him to me, ill get you a $25 RP card.

Quote:
As for normal games, they are worse than 700 elo games cuz when I say "yo, pushing top alone all the way to an inhib is gunna get u killed again, please stop" I get "stfu noob. its not ranked, I do what I want" and I get reported for having a negative attitude. Fun. I got a 2 day ban cuz I did **** like ask people about as nicely as possible to stick with the team so they wouldnt die for the 8th time. Needless to say, I am just about done with talking to anyone in game, cuz the community is so butt hurt that anyone giving advice is labeled a cocky *******. After meting selcopa, I understand why. Kid cant stop tellin me to be better long enough to even understand that I am not worried about my elo and this post wasnt cuz I feel I should have a better elo. I know how I'll get out, my friends.... I dont.... I dont see them ever getting out and as a result they hate this game and dont want to play ranked. Should they be below 1k elo? definately not, will they surpass 1400 and get into games with maybe 1 or 2 manageable feeders? probably not. But madman, like I told selcopa, I'll see you at the top bud. And when I get there, you better believe I'll still be fighting to get the system changed to discourage feeding.
Normal has a hidden elo too.

Quote:
By the way, u can bash my ideas all you want, but I'd like to ask you, how do you suggest we discourage feeding and create a better game for the average player? do you have any advice besides "become better than average"? Didnt think so....
Have a more realistic understanding of the skill level of the average player.

Maybe observe some rec league hockey, basketball, football or any sport.


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Deveyes

Senior Member

12-24-2012

I personally believe in elo hell lol

grats on being pro player with soft elo reset bs lol

look pro players get stuck in elo hell. It's real. It happens. Idk how you don't see it? Maybe you're trying to make some money? liiiiike?

and for that whole bs about "well if elo hell didnt exist then why are people paying for duo queue assistance?"
That's a terrible argument. It's obvious you will most likely do better just because of the fact you are duo queue. Simple. -1 troll/new guy. +1 better player......... less chance of leaver... etc...

I mean I solo queue.. solo. lol. Probably a terrible idea. But I do it. It always ends up being tossed over to luck. It happens.

If elo hell really didn't exist.. why is it a name? why is there no elo hell in sc2? Because there is no elo system lol. You start from 0.. its not that complex....

Get better? Buy this and that... doit.. all poor responses to someone who is getting that terrible draw in the 1200-1400 or below queue.

I honestly have little no real faith in the system anymore. I really feel like.. okay, if im gonna get anywhere above the norm (elo hell) its not really going to be all my skill that decides it. It's just not. Essentially from the fact that it's a team game but moreso because of so many factors in play u cant even list.

Why so many of you "pro" players feel it necessary to deny the idea of an elo hell is beyond me. I think you might have better luck? Thats all im saying lol. How many games with a ranking system have as much animocity towards their system as leagues? none. Leagues hands down has the worst system right now. Its almost a joke. But feel free to continue to act as if there is no such thing. That its the single players fault for not climbing. "get good or stfu" is just some real nerdy-egotism that's appalling lol.

Enjoy that soft elo reset though. Best players are in elo hell. Always lol. But also the ones with the worst luck.


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Archiplex

Senior Member

12-24-2012

Actually, i believe in elo hell.

I don't believe it's impossible to escape; but that it is unfair.


And i'm approx 1270 elo


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Thelohel

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-25-2012

People deny elo hell because there isn't any point from which you can't escape assuming you play well enough to be at a higher rating. Statistically speaking, even solo queuing, the other team is always more likely to have worse players than you (if you are at an elo lower than where you belong) and over the course of enough games you will arrive where you belong.

And no, 1v1 games don't have an elo hell because bad players have no one to blame but themselves.


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Deveyes

Senior Member

12-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thelohel View Post
People deny elo hell because there isn't any point from which you can't escape assuming you play well enough to be at a higher rating. Statistically speaking, even solo queuing, the other team is always more likely to have worse players than you (if you are at an elo lower than where you belong) and over the course of enough games you will arrive where you belong.

And no, 1v1 games don't have an elo hell because bad players have no one to blame but themselves.
oh i love this argument...

so say im a 1400 elo caliber player ok? not that great whatever. so the rest of my team though just so happens to be around 700 elo caliber. k? just for instance right? so say im the best player in the entire game even my opponents right? but my opponents are all 1200 caliber players................................ ur argument is wrong. Thats a fail argument. Those are imaginary figures but the idea is that it doesnt matter if u are the best player in the game.. if are paired with people who are worse than ur opponents.