Why we hate Elo-Hell believers

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deeeJAY

Member

01-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selcopa View Post
You do realize that pros create smurfs all the time and always get to high elo very quickly right?
Everyone says this, but I've yet to see a pro get himself out of 700 Elo in the course of a few weeks. If you could provide a link to a stream or video i would appreciate it.

Furthermore, Elo is supposed to be an AVERAGE rating of players on a given team. One person shouldn't have to carry an entire team to victory if their team is playing bad. This is a TEAM based game. If you're relying on one person, whats the point? This is where the major flaw in Elo arises. If every member on the team played at the same skill level, defeats and victories would play out much differently and there wouldn't be as much complaining.


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deeeJAY

Member

01-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selcopa View Post
The thing is, the current system very accurately portrays relative skill over a mediocre sample size, no one has actually ever been able to convince me or anyone else that they have been stuck at a lower bracket than they deserved for an extended period of time. So there really isn't a point to changing the system, when there aren't very many(if any) cases where it doesn't accurately show skill.
How long would you consider extended? The skill portrayed is the estimated skill of the group as a whole, not as single entities. If bad people get carried into higher brackets, it ruins the statistics, thus elo hell is born. I'm sorry, but if you fail to realize the flaw here, you're extremely stupid. Regardless if there's a way out or a way to avoid being in Elo hell, or if a professional player can carry themselves out...it exists and something needs to be done about it.

The arguments conveyed here are: Well Michael Jordan can score 80 points in a game,obtain MVP, and carry his team to victory. So as a 12 year old, you should theoretically able to to as well, even though you're in the YMCA league. Don't worry about Timmy shooting the basket into his own goal and Jimmy double dribbling though, they're not detrimental to your team and you'll EVENTAULLY make it to the playoffs.

Edit: If you're good enough. Lol...


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deeeJAY

Member

01-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larrythetapist View Post
Semi-wealthy white family, legacy admission into Harvard, etc is only equivalent to being seeded to gold elo (Upper Middle Class).
Seeded gold player, really? Harvard is in the top 5 schools in the WORLD dude.My friend was ranked 2nd in high school. He had a 4.2 GPA and STILL didn't get admitted to Harvard. Your math is VERY wrong. This makes me want to stop reading anything else you have to say. Seriously, this post has accurately portrayed your intelligence level and I'm not impressed. Lastly, the Rothschild's own a BANKING dynasty. I would be rich too if i were the first person to realize that printing paper money in exchange for gold would work on the general populace.

Are you kidding me?


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Ninja2fu

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Junior Member

01-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by deeeJAY View Post
Seeded gold player, really? Harvard is in the top 5 schools in the WORLD dude.My friend was ranked 2nd in high school. He had a 4.2 GPA and STILL didn't get admitted to Harvard. Your math is VERY wrong. This makes me want to stop reading anything else you have to say. Seriously, this post has accurately portrayed your intelligence level and I'm not impressed. Lastly, the Rothschild's own a BANKING dynasty. I would be rich too if i were the first person to realize that printing paper money in exchange for gold would work on the general populace.

Are you kidding me?
You're kidding right? Do you not know what a legacy admission is?


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ninjagear

Senior Member

01-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja2fu View Post
You're kidding right? Do you not know what a legacy admission is?
he knows what it is, the problem is he sucks at video games but cant admit it to himself


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Larrythetapist

Senior Member

01-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmoredNeon View Post
larry do u have a smurf or something?
Cand you show your match history? Actually I'd like to see alot of your guy's games and stats. :P
This is my main account. I am a proud 1100 elo player and I deserve to be exactly where I am due to my horrid cs abilities and my tendencies to be overly aggressive in situations where defensive play would have served me better. I am agreeing with the system, I am happy with the system, I do not ask for change.


On the contrary, it is people like you, who thinks you are pro-level stuck in low-level games, who have something to prove. And you can prove it by showing your match history.


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Larrythetapist

Senior Member

01-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by deeeJAY View Post
Seeded gold player, really? Harvard is in the top 5 schools in the WORLD dude.My friend was ranked 2nd in high school. He had a 4.2 GPA and STILL didn't get admitted to Harvard. Your math is VERY wrong. This makes me want to stop reading anything else you have to say. Seriously, this post has accurately portrayed your intelligence level and I'm not impressed. Lastly, the Rothschild's own a BANKING dynasty. I would be rich too if i were the first person to realize that printing paper money in exchange for gold would work on the general populace.
Are you kidding me?
Harvard is not that great dude, a lot of people make more money than the average Harvard grad by not even going to college. Bill Gates DROPPED OUT of Harvard and he makes more money than any Harvard GRADUATE.

Ivy League = Gold Seeding. Nothing more, nothing less.


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deeeJAY

Member

01-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja2fu View Post
You're kidding right? Do you not know what a legacy admission is?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjagear View Post
he knows what it is, the problem is he sucks at video games but cant admit it to himself
Lol? Did you two even read the whole conversation? How many people do you REALLY think have the capacity to pay an Ivy league school thousands of dollars a year, just in the hopes that one day their child will be able to attend? It sure isn't 10% of the populace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larrythetapist View Post
Harvard is not that great dude, a lot of people make more money than the average Harvard grad by not even going to college. Bill Gates DROPPED OUT of Harvard and he makes more money than any Harvard GRADUATE.

Ivy League = Gold Seeding. Nothing more, nothing less.
So where exactly is this Analogy going? You brought up Harvard being equal to gold level players. Now you're saying Harvard isn't that good of a school, thus gold isn't that good of an elo bracket, yet you're stuck in 1100 Elo? Come on man...

Who cares whether or not it's a good school. It's an Ivy league, and in the top 5 schools. The name is what matters here, not the education. It's like purchasing a Sony vs a Visio. A BMW vs a Toyota. Shall i continue? They get you to the exact same place and look nearly identical, yet one is considered far better by many people.

Oh and here is some knowledge:

http://www.census.gov/newsroom/relea...cb11-ff15.html
According to that site, 19.7 million students attended college in the 11-12 school year.
http://theivycoach.com/2012-ivy-leag...ns-statistics/
According to this site, a mere 23,514 students were accepted into ivy league schools in 2012.
That is .11% of the entire collage populace.
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Elo_rating_system
says Gold rankings are the top 5-1%. Since .11 is lower than 1 this would INSTANTANEOUSLY make them a platinum or higher player.


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Selcopa

Senior Member

01-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by deeeJAY View Post
How long would you consider extended?
No progress after ~50-100 games
Quote:
The skill portrayed is the estimated skill of the group as a whole, not as single entities.
That's not what im saying, I'm saying that the elo system portays skill accurately, in that there aren't 1400 elo players better than 1600, this of course is over a series of at least 50 games, nobody denies in the short term you can get an unlucky placement or a player can get carried, but you cant sustain luck
Quote:
If bad people get carried into higher brackets, it ruins the statistics, thus elo hell is born.
Actually, it doesn't ruin statistics, in fact statistics not only suggests that players will get carried some games, it guarantees that this will happen. Its generally how players achieve their top elo, they stay around their elo for a bit, get a lucky run and go up.

Quote:
I'm sorry, but if you fail to realize the flaw here, you're extremely stupid. Regardless if there's a way out or a way to avoid being in Elo hell, or if a professional player can carry themselves out...it exists and something needs to be done about it.
Elo hell is the idea that a professional(or higher skilled player) is not able to carry themselves out. Its a direct contradiction to say "x can carry themselves out"

Its possible what you are confusing elo hell with is Variance, Noise, Below Expected Value. Different names but pretty much all the same concept, these are real things, possibly mistaken for elo hell, but very different.

You could argue "That's what im talking about! We need to eliminate Noise, Variance, -EV, ELO HELL" And this is where we get into Game Theory.

The simple fact is, any system that evaluates individual players performance in a team environment, will have this "elo hell" or more commonly called Noise/Variance in game theory concepts. Any idea you come up with be it awarding elo, punshing afks, will have problems that can easily poke through and be abused. No one has ever come up with a system that is more effective at reducing variance, without creating horrible flaws that can be abused.

You can throw any concept into the system adding elo for assists,kills, dragons, whatever, it becomes a target of abuse and skews the proper skill level of a player, you can even have this argument with yourself if you are intelligent enough, just ask yourself how any idea could be abused, if its able to be abused you can generally be sure its going to be abused, and therefore you probably shouldn't put it in the system. Eventually you will run out of ideas and come to realize that you cant really add any elo modifiers to the system without destroying the balance and accuracy.

I should also point out that it is almost universally accepted in game theory standards that you cannot award elo for actions that are not finishing a game, be that a win, loss or in cases where its possible, a draw. It just doesn't work that way.

Quote:
The arguments conveyed here are: Well Michael Jordan can score 80 points in a game,obtain MVP, and carry his team to victory. So as a 12 year old, you should theoretically able to to as well, even though you're in the YMCA league. Don't worry about Timmy shooting the basket into his own goal and Jimmy double dribbling though, they're not detrimental to your team and you'll EVENTAULLY make it to the playoffs.
The only thing this proves is that people are horrible at making comparison examples.

Quote:
Everyone says this, but I've yet to see a pro get himself out of 700 Elo in the course of a few weeks. If you could provide a link to a stream or video i would appreciate it.
I believe there are some videos of saintvicious from when his account got hacked and reset to 1 elo. If I remember right he didn't lose a single game going from 1-900 in about a week before his account got fixed.

No one argues that if you want to go from 700 to 1500, its going to take some time, even a winrate of 80% the whole way will take a significant amount of time simply because of how long a game takes, throw in the inevitable losses and the journey can take a few months even.

The reason this isn't a problem is there are no 1500 players at 700, during that time the player might improve, but a 1500 player just doesn't fall to 700, It just doesn't happen. Unless you manipulate the placement matches in order to get yourself that low.


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Selcopa

Senior Member

01-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by deeeJAY View Post
Everyone says this, but I've yet to see a pro get himself out of 700 Elo in the course of a few weeks. If you could provide a link to a stream or video i would appreciate it.

Furthermore, Elo is supposed to be an AVERAGE rating of players on a given team. One person shouldn't have to carry an entire team to victory if their team is playing bad. This is a TEAM based game. If you're relying on one person, whats the point? This is where the major flaw in Elo arises. If every member on the team played at the same skill level, defeats and victories would play out much differently and there wouldn't be as much complaining.
Missed this one.

Great example of not understanding how elo works here.

Under your understand of elo, a team 200 points higher will ALWAYS beat the lower team, 100% of the time, because 1 team is higher therefore they wont lose.

Except elo systems acknowledge that some players will play better than others even at the same elo, players will not play their best every game, that's why a player 400 elo higher will beat a player lower than them x<100% of the time and not 100%