AP Mages are losing their place in League

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EzSkillshot

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElementzPRO View Post
-Yes
-Yes
-No
-Yes
-Yes
-Yes
-No also not viable
-Yes
-No also not viable

Cass Karth and vlad all get hard countered by bruisers expect to see a lot of lee sin picked to counter them in season 3
Karthus literally can not stay in lane against a lee sin
You must be..


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Niceguydan8

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Risemix View Post
This is already happening both in the pro scene and in solo queue. Champions like Talon, Lee Sin, Pantheon, Fiora, Xin Zhao, etc. are just better choices mid lane because they have very few AP counters. The only way to counter this threat is to play another bruiser or one of the few mages that can handle it.
To be fair, Bruiser/fighter mids have most likely done well against generic AP mids for a lot longer than just the last couple of patches. You can blame people for only following for what pros do for the new wave of AD casters/bruisers/fighters mid lane. Once someone shows that they can be beaten by another class, everyone will just flock to that.

They aren't always better choices. Like someone said, you get more UTILITY by playing a utility mage. Most of the champions you name have limited utility compared to an AOE cc like some mages have.


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Maeyu

Senior Member

12-21-2012

AP died.. ADC is near. bruisers just stack HP.. it's getting to the point where you just use AP for good CC like mumu wheneve rhe isn't banned. Basically it's who trades off better anymore.. you can't really do well unless your team or yourself starves these bruisers, and it is hard... very hard.


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ElementzPRO

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by NightWolf1452346 View Post
That's not quite correct. While a ranged AP mage does have some advantage with their auto attacks, that particular advantage disappears when the bruiser becomes strong enough to reach the mage and retaliate in kind, once the bruiser has all of he/her kit. That's why bruises usually play it safe until lv 3-4.

I am not good at AP mages, so take what I say now with a grain of salt. I believe the way for ranged mages to maintain an advantage in lane is to make sure the bruiser does not reach you, through CC, move quints, etc. Case in point, I occasionally play Riven mid, and I ran into a Veigar with move quints once, and he wrecked me, b/c I can't get to him.

Now, if we throw a champ with more reliable dash (Lee Sin, Xin Zhao, or Irelia even), what happens? That particular advantage becomes much more difficult to maintain unless you can quickly disengage or retaliate with even more dmg and make them regret or be wary of trading with you (Cassi comes to mind in the later case).

Still, this only allows a squishy ranged mage to survive a bruiser. The rest will depend on the player's ability to roam (difficult b/c bruiser can push fairly well) and teamfight (much better due to the mage's utility and CC)

Tl;dr Ranged mages have to be very careful to survive a bruiser, but shines in a team fight situation.

even ranged mages are at a severe disadvantage against bruisers starting from level 1 because bruisers have naturally high hp regen and get the hp regen from the tank tree which means they can outregen the autos


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Tyra Wadman

Senior Member

12-21-2012

You must not play good AP then cause I do just fine. I'm dragging my team along most of the times or I finish with the least amount of deaths and a good sum of kills.

Depends if someone steals it or not... )8<


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Sammystorm

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nard Daawg View Post
Have fun not running any AP on your team and having the opposing team stack armor. Enjoy the loss
Not true anymore. Making resistances more expensive the changes to how penetration works and black cleaver have made it so that 5 ad is completely viable.


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Slan

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Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hachirokuo View Post
Talon was played so much that it took riot and everyone else 1 year to tell his E was broke. That should tell you how viable AD casters were in S2.
Talon was never played that much.. his popularity dropped a lot after they nerfed his W harass...

Only became more popular after pre-S3 patch where Black Cleaver got made into something Talon could use very well.


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Zhugan

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Risemix View Post
I didn't say it wasn't always true -- I'm saying that while it was always true before, there's no incentive to run anything but bruisers that counter AP mids now because their magic damage isn't very important due to new ArPen mechanics and items, and because their control and mobility are no longer a monopoly.

It used to be that you would run a bruiser mid to counter a mage occasionally, but only if you had an AP top or something else because it was important to have a mage on your team somewhere. It's not important anymore because most mages don't bring anything you need. Utility mages still work, but they aren't totally necessary either as usually a support covers a lot of that stuff.

Side note: I think there's something wrong with the fact that you can counter any standard lane by sticking a bruiser in it. Kill lanes easily counter standard bot lanes too, but like season 2 mid lanes, there are trade-offs involved. You give up having an AD carry late game unless they were in another lane.
There is a degree of build sacrifice on a team that runs 4 ad champions and a support. The other team can safely build a LOT of armor and hp, and that would more or less invalidate the opposing teams ability to deal damage.

What's more, give me an example of a bruiser with the utility of Orianna/Lux/Karthus/Anivia? I will wait here while you fail to do that. You can't do that because such a bruiser doesn't exist. Having to have a gap closer limits what their kit can contain.

And not all lanes are countered by throwing bruisers into a lane. Having a kill lane bot means both sacrificing having an ad carry AND hoping that you kill their ad carry/support often enough to take their ad carry out of the game. If you don't do that, then you have a problem, a big one.

You're talking like only bruisers are good, but a late game ad carry is still a terrifying thing to behold. Mid game, a good ap carry can melt just about anyone on the opposing team. There are lots of ap mids that do more in a teamfight than a bruiser could ever hope to do.

Can you make their lane harder by putting them against a bruiser? Sure. That doesn't invalidate the role. It just means that your team has to recognize where its strengths are and react accordingly, and know what your weaknesses are and do what you can to limit their exposure to the other team and build to minimize the impact of those weaknesses.


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Risemix

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niceguydan8 View Post
To be fair, Bruiser/fighter mids have most likely done well against generic AP mids for a lot longer than just the last couple of patches. You can blame people for only following for what pros do for the new wave of AD casters/bruisers/fighters mid lane. Once someone shows that they can be beaten by another class, everyone will just flock to that.

They aren't always better choices. Like someone said, you get more UTILITY by playing a utility mage. Most of the champions you name have limited utility compared to an AOE cc like some mages have.
I responded to this point already. It was always true that bruisers counter mages. What wasn't always true is that there are now few risks and trade-offs associated with bringing a bruiser instead of a mage. For example, your team might like magic damage or control. Bruisers nowadays have all the control they'd ever want, and magic damage isn't even really necessary.


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Sammystorm

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niceguydan8 View Post
To be fair, Bruiser/fighter mids have most likely done well against generic AP mids for a lot longer than just the last couple of patches. You can blame people for only following for what pros do for the new wave of AD casters/bruisers/fighters mid lane. Once someone shows that they can be beaten by another class, everyone will just flock to that.

They aren't always better choices. Like someone said, you get more UTILITY by playing a utility mage. Most of the champions you name have limited utility compared to an AOE cc like some mages have.
Yes this is true but the amount of mages that bring a good amount utility is low. I can think of only a few that have good AOE cc. Anivia, Karthus, Orianna, Vladimir. Other than that I can't think of any AP mage that can do more than there ad counterparts