Split Pushers

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Etherimp

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by PogoPogoPogoPogo View Post
No. I can't justify putting Sivir up there. First off, teleport is a summoner spell that anyone could take to turn them into a pseudo-split pusher, because it allows them to quickly get back to their lane. And yes, Sivir will destroy a tower quickly...

But I'm going to argue that Sivir fails the 2nd and 3rd criteria.

Sivir fails the 2nd criteria in that all she has to keep her alive is her E. It's a spell shield which at rank 5 (and you don't get this till level 18) has a 10 second cooldown, it lasts a maximum of 3 seconds, and it doesn't block auto-attacks.

Sivir's R gives her only half of the speed Yi's R gives him, and it doesn't make her immune to slows. Frozen Mallet's slow is stronger than Sivir's R's speed boost.


Sivir fails the 3rd criteria because she's the ADC. The only way Sivir doesn't fail the 3rd criteria is if you've come up with some strategy that involves Sivir playing top lane or something so she's not your primary ADC.

The thing is, split pushing really doesn't necessarily fall into your criteria.

The object of split pushing:

Force pressure on 2 or more separate lane towers, so as to divide the enemy team OR force them to lose 1 or more towers.


You don't need escapes if you're Sivir. All you need is to Ulti a large minion wave, and between your ASpd and your W and your minion clearing power, you can drop towers almost instantly.

Nasus is another example of an effective split pusher than you haven't mentioned or considered. Why is he so powerful? Because his Q destroys towers and inhibs VERY fast.. Faster than most teams can respond to the tower being taken.



It's worth mentioning that split pushing with Wards in enemy jungle and a teleport spell is much more effective on ANY character, than depending solely on your escapes, etc.

For example.. Nidalee and Shaco can escape decently well when the enemy responds, but they will not drop a tower nearly as fast as Sivir or Nasus, so they NEED the escapes.. Sivir or Nasus just need to be at the tower for a few moments to drop it, then they can run away, teleport away, or B, before the enemy team has a chance to interrupt them.

If you have wards in enemy jungle (which you should), this allows you the option of continuing your push and ensures a safe retreat should you see the enemy team responding.


Also, I would add Jarvan and Trundle to your list.

For Jarvan,

1. High attack speed.
2. Decent minion clearing power.
3. Not vital to the team fight (although useful depending upon your comp)
4. Has decent escapes with E/Q combo, flash, ulti, and W slow.
5. Can 1v1 anything squishier than another Tanky DPS

Trundle has..

1. High attack speed/mobility
2. A great disengage.
3. One of the best duelist in the game.
4. Not vital to the team fight.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etherimp View Post
The object of split pushing:

Force pressure on 2 or more separate lane towers, so as to divide the enemy team OR force them to lose 1 or more towers.
If you're trying to 4v5 or 4v4 the enemy, and your team doesn't have it's ADC, then you're probably only putting pressure on the tower that your split-pushing ADC is in. This is why I included the 3rd criteria. If your split pusher is someone crucial to your team fighting ability, then your main group of teammates isn't going to be threatening enough to pressure the objectives in the lane they're in. The enemy team can send two people to take care of the split pusher, and the added damage from the tower will be enough for them to do well enough in a 3v4.

And ultimately, this means neither lane has any pressure.

That's why I have this criteria. I see people trying to split push all the time with champions that aren't good split pushers, and it just ends up meaning the team trying to split push is at a significant disadvantage a lot of the times.


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Etherimp

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by PogoPogoPogoPogo View Post
If you're trying to 4v5 or 4v4 the enemy, and your team doesn't have it's ADC, then you're probably only putting pressure on the tower that your split-pushing ADC is in. This is why I included the 3rd criteria. If your split pusher is someone crucial to your team fighting ability, then your main group of teammates isn't going to be threatening enough to pressure the objectives in the lane they're in. The enemy team can send two people to take care of the split pusher, and the added damage from the tower will be enough for them to do well enough in a 3v4.

And ultimately, this means neither lane has any pressure.

That's why I have this criteria. I see people trying to split push all the time with champions that aren't good split pushers, and it just ends up meaning the team trying to split push is at a significant disadvantage a lot of the times.

I think that depends TOTALLY on the rest of your team comp, and not so much on which "role" you have doing the split pushing.

A team with a lot of poke and an ASpd buff can easily threaten a tower without an ADC.

I'm not totally disagreeing with you.. I understand your point. I just think Split pushing is one of those things that takes an entire team to properly execute, and is far less dependent upon what champion you happen to have picked.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

12-21-2012

You're right, it does depend on your total team composition, and that's why I'm hesitant about adding champions like Lee Sin, Singed, or even Jarvan, because of the high likelihood that their team is going to be relying on them as an initiator or a front line.


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Etherimp

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by PogoPogoPogoPogo View Post
You're right, it does depend on your total team composition, and that's why I'm hesitant about adding champions like Lee Sin, Singed, or even Jarvan, because of the high likelihood that their team is going to be relying on them as an initiator or a front line.

A good way to deal with that would be by classifying them into different groups...

IE -

1. Good split pushers on their own. (Teemo, Shaco, Master Yi)

2. Good tower pressure. (Sivir, Nasus)

3. Tier 2/3 tower pushers which are not great on their own but can effectively split push with the right team comp.. IE - Jarvan, etc.


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Dogo4

Junior Member

12-21-2012

Hydra makes GP a solid split pusher... he has a global ult, doesn't offer much team fight utility (his ult does that!), and clears a whole wave with Auto + Parrrrrley + Hydra active. He's also slippery with oranges + morale. A top-lane GP is quite strong and can do his shenanigans even if there are defenders.


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Thorston13

Senior Member

12-21-2012

You're missing Riven there....your Q can take out minions super fast, you do damage to the tower decently, you can 1vs2 easily and you can dash away with E and Q, and she doesn't has that great of an initiation.

Nasus can melt towers away once he has the Sheen, he can clear out minion waves with the AoE he has, and he may even go duel anyone anyways, With the Q+Sheen procs you do around 600 damage or more to structures.

Jayce it's about the same with the speed steroids, the att speed on his W and the ability to just clear minions away, you may miss the Acceleration Gate on teamfights, but they might as well do fine.

And the last is a maybe, Fiora she has the Att Speed steroid and she can duel most characters easy, but the minion clearing speed may be the problem there.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Does Nasus's Q do damage to the tower?

Jax's W doesn't.


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TheGoldenRebel

Senior Member

12-21-2012

What about pantheon? As soon as you know the enemy team is coming, you can ult somewhere safe.
Or, cho, amazing pusher, if you get boots of mobility, they can't catch you with your stun


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Thorston13

Senior Member

12-22-2012

Pogo (X4) Yes, nasus Q does damage to structures and it stacks up with sheen.