"Unbalancable by Design"

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AHeroNamedHawke1

Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
I alluded to this in another post I wrote, but you're generally right--there's no such thing as an unbalanceable concept.

However, an important consideration to take when finding that happy medium between OP and UP is whether that ability still feels good to use in the end. Lee Sin is a great example for a champion that's actually very easy to nerf, as he's quite mechanically bloated...
Q: damage, dash, execute, reveal
W: shield, dash, energy return, life steal, spell vamp
E: damage, reveal, attack speed slow, move speed slow
R: damage, targeted interrupt, AoE interrupt
It's incredibly difficult to nerf individual numbers, as that runs the risk of watering it down so much he's no longer fun to use. However because his abilities have so much tacked on, it's a simple matter to remove one of the more minor aspects without destroying his core gameplay (for example, the energy return on his W that most people, including me two days ago, don't even know about).

Someone like Blitzcrank is really much harder to nerf because his strength is also his defining characteristic. It's up to live team to determine if Blitzcrank is a problem though.
Im pretty sure it wouldnt be that hard to nerf Blitz's 500 base damage AOE silence. Or permaghost. Or knockup CD.


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Intellectional

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malurth View Post
Panth's shield doesn't block Shen's Q.
Right, I derped there. This actually makes Panth a stronger matchup against Shen because Shen can't just Q to pop passive shield. Maybe AP Shen could threaten him, but no one builds AP Shen.


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Durzaka

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Just want to saw, youre entire argument is supported by you talking about Vlad as resourceless, when in face, he has a resource.

Riven, Garen, and Kat are true resourceless champions. Skills using health is still a limited resource.


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Borand

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Lol read what the OP wrote in his last paragraph, that's the point he is trying to make.


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CaptainAMorgan

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ÄHeroNamedHawke View Post
Im pretty sure it wouldnt be that hard to nerf Blitz's 500 base damage AOE silence. Or permaghost. Or knockup CD.
This... (add mana costs to his two free skills, not so much spam knockup/MS)

But RIOT will just rework him in a year.

Because Morello uses the "It cannot be balanced the way it is" argument.

Flawed to it's core.


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orakio

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
Someone like Blitzcrank is really much harder to nerf because his strength is also his defining characteristic. It's up to live team to determine if Blitzcrank is a problem though.
I just want to point out that while Blitz's defining characteristic is definitely his grab, there are other abilities in his kit that are extremely problematic and solveable with a numbers fix.

For example Power fist.

At rank 5 its only 25 mana and a 5 second CD, but has a 1.25-1.5 second (not sure exact amount) knockup and doubles his total AD.

The amount of CC this brings, at a negligible mana cost and ridiculously short CD is part of what makes blitzcrank so unbalanced later in the game where he is able to practically chain cc players, and there is nothing you can do to reduce the duration of the disable due to being a knockup.

You could change the mana cost, helping reduce some of the tankiness from mana barrier. You could increase the CD to something like leona's shield of daybreak, and you could change the knockup to a stun or other effect that is mitigateable by tenacity. You could look at giving it a base damage instead of just doubling all of his AD... so many options.

This stuff may not prevent him from being an always pick/ban, but it would probably help with how broken he feels in non-SR non-support roles, because the reality is a TF rocking tankcrank beats pretty much every melee lategame simply from the number of disables and utility of his kit. It is the most frustrating thing in the world to get pulled and chain disabled by 1 player for the amount of time blitzcrank is able to.


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CaptainAMorgan

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by orakio View Post
I just want to point out that while Blitz's defining characteristic is definitely his grab, there are other abilities in his kit that are extremely problematic and solveable with a numbers fix.

For example Power fist.

At rank 5 its only 25 mana and a 5 second CD, but has a 1.25-1.5 second (not sure exact amount) knockup and doubles his total AD.

The amount of CC this brings, at a negligible mana cost and ridiculously short CD is part of what makes blitzcrank so unbalanced later in the game where he is able to practically chain cc players, and there is nothing you can do to reduce the duration of the disable due to being a knockup.

You could change the mana cost, helping reduce some of the tankiness from mana barrier. You could increase the CD to something like leona's shield of daybreak, and you could change the knockup to a stun or other effect that is mitigateable by tenacity. You could look at giving it a base damage instead of just doubling all of his AD... so many options.

This stuff may not prevent him from being an always pick/ban, but it would probably help with how broken he feels in non-SR non-support roles, because the reality is a TF rocking tankcrank beats pretty much every melee lategame simply from the number of disables and utility of his kit. It is the most frustrating thing in the world to get pulled and chain disabled by 1 player for the amount of time blitzcrank is able to.
Awesome suggestions.

I have to agree that there are some spam problems in regards to blitz. It's too easy to spam 2/4 skills late game. He gets free damage from the ult and can activate it for a huge silence and nuke. Has one of the only serious displacement skills in the game on an extremely short CD (for what it does) and it's one of 6 displacements that bring the enemy to you, and one of two that brings them right to you, it also has the longest range of all of them.

He is in need of the nerfsss!


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xXN4rut0420xX

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
I alluded to this in another post I wrote, but you're generally right--there's no such thing as an unbalanceable concept.

However, an important consideration to take when finding that happy medium between OP and UP is whether that ability still feels good to use in the end. Lee Sin is a great example for a champion that's actually very easy to nerf, as he's quite mechanically bloated...
Q: damage, dash, execute, reveal
W: shield, dash, energy return, life steal, spell vamp
E: damage, reveal, attack speed slow, move speed slow
R: damage, targeted interrupt, AoE interrupt
It's incredibly difficult to nerf individual numbers, as that runs the risk of watering it down so much he's no longer fun to use. However because his abilities have so much tacked on, it's a simple matter to remove one of the more minor aspects without destroying his core gameplay (for example, the energy return on his W that most people, including me two days ago, don't even know about).

Someone like Blitzcrank is really much harder to nerf because his strength is also his defining characteristic. It's up to live team to determine if Blitzcrank is a problem though.
The same live team that killed urgot and rengar?

To be honest you guys need to get your head out of your ass. One good blitz pull is a win to the other team. Nobody need a degree to see this


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Bekkal

Senior Member

12-21-2012

The thing about Shen/Blitz/Malph is that they aren't numerically OP. People just either A) don't like dealing with them or B) don't trust their allies to deal with them in solo queue.


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Ipitydafool

Senior Member

12-21-2012

I've always said this and your statement is especially true about bad champions needing buffs. How hard is it to make a quick mantra tweak to Karma? Instead she sits being garbage tier for like 2 years. Some characters may be tough to balance and can't get a quick tweak. But there are way more characters that can get a few numbers tweaks and be useable as we wait for more extensive reworks. I hate Riot's 'we only release when we are 100% sure this is where we want the character' because it literally never works out. The character always needs more tweaks.